Laser 28 versus PHRF Boats

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   I race PHRF in Vancouver with a fairly tight spread of PHRF boats and one other L28. 
I would be interested to here how people would objectively rate the Laser against similarly rated PHRF boats.
For my two cents I'll throw in the following observations.
Laser 28 versus C & C 33-2  (about equal PHRF rating here)

Both equal in light air with not much tacking
Moderate air upwind C&C slightly higher
Moderate air downwind Laser slightly faster
Heavy air upwind (flat water) Laser faster 
Heavy air upwind (chop) C&C faster

Heavy air downwind Laser waves goodbye
Laser 28 versus Tarten Ten (about equally rated here)

Equal in light air 

Tarten is faster in any chop

Moderate air Tarten faster uphill Laser downhill 

Heavy air Tarten faster with waves uphill equal otherwise

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Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Laser 28 versus PHRF Boats Posted: 06 November 2002 at 12:24pm
	I race PHRF in Vancouver with a fairly tight spread of PHRF boats and one other L28. I would be interested to here how people would objectively rate the Laser against similarly rated PHRF boats. For my two cents I'll throw in the following observations. Laser 28 versus C & C 33-2 (about equal PHRF rating here) Both equal in light air with not much tacking Moderate air upwind C&C slightly higher Moderate air downwind Laser slightly faster Heavy air upwind (flat water) Laser faster Heavy air upwind (chop) C&C faster Heavy air downwind Laser waves goodbye Laser 28 versus Tarten Ten (about equally rated here) Equal in light air Tarten is faster in any chop Moderate air Tarten faster uphill Laser downhill Heavy air Tarten faster with waves uphill equal otherwise

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 November 2002 at 11:02am
	I don't have much information to share here because I have very little PHRF racing experience and none against boats with a similar rating to L28. I do think that the question of whether L28 handicaps are perceived to be fair or not is worth debating. I believe that the lack of L28 participation in PHRF racing in Montreal may have been to our disadvantage in maintaining a fair rating. I suspect that within the Montreal fleet there may be some who are reluctant to race in PHRF events because L28's only seem to race up to their current PHRF-LO rating during windier conditions. In one event last summer I was crewing aboard Dick Steffen's L28 (PHRF-LO = 123) at Hudson YC regatta in the "long distance" race. On a downwind leg of 2-3 miles we raced level against 3 Etchell's 22 (PHRF-LO = 117) in 15 knots but reaching and close hauled for 2 miles they pulled away sufficiently so that the leading Etchell won on handicap. Question is what does that mean? My overall impression is that the differences between well sailed and not so well sailed within a class are much greater than between two well sailed boats racing with different handicaps. Another question does anyone know of a good web site that lists PHRF ratings for different OD classes? The PHRF Lake ontario lists boats by name.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 November 2002 at 7:55pm
	This is a contribution to this discussion authored by Dave Black (Jet) who is Toronto fleet captain and gained 4th place L28 N.A. Championship 2002. The Toronto L28's sail almost all year in PHRF handicap events but still compete very well as class boats on the annual pilgrimage to Kingston. On Lake Ontario the Laser 28 rates 123 PHRF. The C&C33-2 rates 132 PHRF and the Tartan Ten rates 129 (last time I checked). In general the Laser 28's are faster boat for boat and conditions only determine if the time given is enough to win on corrected time. I think people largely over react to rating differences when there are small time differences and there is a fairly tight spread in the PHRF class. How significant is 9 seconds in rating? When using time on time (as opposed to time on distance) it means approximately 54 seconds per 60 minutes of racing. In general there are greater time differences between the top of a one design fleet and the middle of the fleet, so the determining factor will still be largely how close you come to getting the potential out of the boat and not differences in rating. Obviously that is even more the case if the time difference in rating is less than that - I.e. 6 seconds in rating equates to approx. 36 seconds per 60 minutes and 3 seconds in rating means approx. 18 seconds in 60 minutes of racing. You mention that you have a fairly tight spread in your PHRF class so this will somewhat approximate the traffic pattern of a one design class, and make the above more applicable. In my own opinion the Laser 28 is an easy boat to sail. Sails are a manageable size and loads are low. However it does take some time and effort to sail it close to it's potential. There are boats out there that are almost entirely tactical - boat speed is very easy to come by. There are other boats that are almost entirely boat speed - the boats are quite tricky to set up and the speed differences are huge in the fleet. I think the Laser 28 lies between the 2 extremes and makes for a nice compromise. Boat speed and tactics are needed. Given the above, obviously the easiest way to gauge and improve your boat speed (and tactics!) is to race against as many competitive Laser 28's as possible. It is also a given that this is not possible for a significant number of boats. It is very difficult to make changes to trim and set-up and determine if they are positive if you don't have a consistent benchmark - a C&C 33-2 and even a Tartan Ten are vastly different boats and in my opinion do not make good benchmarks. If I were in a position where I did not have the opportunity to race against a number of competitive Laser 28's, I would make extensive use of target boat speeds upwind and target angles downwind. The numbers available are very attainable. If you keep a close eye on boat speed when conditions change (even slightly) you will know immediately that it is time to change gears. One of the key indicators that the boat is not set up properly is if the boat slows down when you get a gust. I know this sounds rather obvious, but it sure happened to me often enough! You indicate that you have more trouble with the above boats in chop as opposed to flat water. I have found we have a distinct advantage in waves versus the above boats (C&C 33-2 in particular) as long as we keep sailing target speeds. If you try to point without much twist and powered up you will be slow and go sideways - not a good combination but another one I have experienced! If you ensure that there is a fair bit of twist in the sails (varying angle of attack means some part of the sail plan is working at all angles) and the sails set (angle of attack via traveler and power via amount of draft) to keep the boat relatively flat (try to keep to 15 degrees of heel or less) then when you have to drive around waves to keep the speed up you will not be overpowered and keep leeway to a minimum. A fairly draft forward shape is also more forgiving when you have to avoid the really big potholes (flow is apparently quicker to re-attach). In general, it has been my experience that when boats have similar ratings the boat with a longer "sailing length" (generally the average of length overall and waterline length - LOA and LWL) will be at their best in waterline conditions i.e.. flat water and moderate winds or "hull speed" conditions. In these same conditions pointing ability becomes more of an issue. I think because the original emphasis was placed on sailing Laser 28's with a lapper as opposed to an overlapping headsail, the rig geometry (spreader length, chainplate location etc) is less than ideal for tight sheeting angles for a # 1 genoa - not many people still use the cabin track but make more use of the deck track - wider sheeting angle. In non hull speed conditions i.e.. lighter or heavier conditions, or moderate conditions with enough wave action to limit hull speed, then a shorter lighter boat will be at their relative best, particularly one with a narrow entry like a Laser 28. That is my two cents and I have to acknowledge that I do not do much PHRF racing at the moment, as I try to make the effort to race one design, if I am able to race at all. In the Toronto area, the most active "PHRF" Laser 28 is "Rags" sailed by Judy and Frank Button. They can be contacted at "laser 28.com" and have a list of many comparative Laser 28 ratings versus the above boats from many areas.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2002 at 2:19pm
	Dave and Andrew, Thanks for your insight... I have raced my boat compeditively in Vancouver for the last five years and have finnally got to the point where I believe our boat speed is in the top 10% of our compeditors. We carry a large PHRF optimized inventory of sails including light and heavy gennies (with inboard and outboard tracks), 1/2 oz running kite, assymetrical (50 deg AWA) kite, Full .9oz heavy air kite and others. We consistently beat both the C&C 33-2 and the Tarten but in moderate air with short disturbed seas it is tough to sail the boat to its rating. The boat is too light to punch through the confused chop that we often get due to the nasty current generated waves. I do race against another L28 in our club. That boat is generally well sailed and has a good inventory. I'll add another set of observations for a very well sailed boat again in our club Laser 28 versus C & C 35-1 (also about equal PHRF rating here) The L28 is faster in under 6 knots of wind Moderate air upwind C&C 35 is about equal Reaching (non-spinnaker) the 35 is faster Moderate air downwind the boats are equal Heavy air upwind (flat water) Laser faster Heavy air upwind (moderate sea) both boats are equal Heavy air upwind (large sea) C&C faster Heavy air downwind above 20 the L28 is faster I would like to sail against other L28's however that's not the game in town so the benchmarks I have are the well sailed boats that I compete against. PHRF tactics tend to lead a slightly different direction than one design tactics and I often need to remind crew that sail one design of the need to seperate and sail fast. We often have boats correct out on us in short w/l courses by extremely small margins. In our lasts race of about 2 hour 40 minutes only 3 minutes sperated the top seven boats in our division. That's a difference on 10 secs/ mile. I agree completely with your comments regarding gusts and speed. We do try to sail the boat fast, but it can be extremely challenging when you are at the top end of a #1 and are hit with 20 (+) lifting gusts.