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What the winners use??

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WarBird View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 November 2008 at 8:55am

Did we see in Sailing Anarchy a regatta with 19 Laser 28s in Canada.  Lets hear from the fleet and the leaders a word or two about their set-up, trimming and maybe some tactics.  We in the hinterlands racing PHRF or small fleets have little against which to gauge our performance.  If we have upwind speed against a J80 is that good or just expected.  Are T-10s an even match to us  or should we smoke 'em While we do well against some boats in some conditions, can we do better?  Who has a jib cunningham, do you use it?  Do you use inhaulers or outhauler regularly??  When if ever do you use cabin top tracks??  While we try to get better and better,  some tips from the leaders would help.  Let's hear from Cloud 9, Still Crazy, Rampant and others. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2008 at 9:33pm
Eclipse, surely renamed, has joined that fleet. Best of luck to the new skipper and her crew.

Warbird, I hear setting the kite sideways is always fast....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarBird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2008 at 10:50am

WarBird posted this inquiry 5 weeks ago and there has been virtually NO response.  Is the fleet secretive or do the majority not look at this sight?  Sideways spinnacker??? Pics or it didn't happen (2 or 3 times!)

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Bill Layton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Layton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2008 at 6:55pm
Ok here is the site for Laser28 in Magog Quebec. Lots of boats there now but not a trmendous amout of racing.

http://cvrm.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=148&Itemid=31

The Canadian championships were held there this year. Interestingly Quantum Sails got 1st & 2nd places and the rest were a mix of Q, hood, north, and doyle.

cheers




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2009 at 11:05am
Hi Warbird,

I'd be glad to answer any questions you have! :)

To answer some of your questions.

Who has a jib cunningham, do you use it?
- We don't have one. Halyard tension is what we use.

Do you use inhaulers or outhauler regularly??
- We don't use any.

When if ever do you use cabin top tracks??
- Our forward sail is cut to use the lower track so we never use the cabin ones.

While we try to get better and better, some tips from the leaders would help.
- You can also contact me on hotmail and use this forum id. (don't want the bots to pick up my email)

We use Quantum sails, in our opininon, the fastest sails for this boat at the moment. We love the Fusion M. I think it's the best Genois ever made for the Laser 28. We got them from Bill Layton and Denise Bienvenu (made in the Toronto loft).

Cheers,
Luc Gregoire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2009 at 11:49am
Here are a few pictures from Magog.

http://www.estrieplus.com/album-131-3-0-.html
Luc Gregoire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarBird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 3:27pm

Luc Gregoire asked some questions and this was my reply plus some narrative,

We use North Sails, 1 new one each year NorthSails owner is a local. Mast rake is Headstay=32' 8-8 1/2" (more on that later)  Uppers 1060-1280, Lowers620-740. 4 Laser 28s (not 8 Luc) in our Club, Eclipse just went to Canada(we apologize for the full holding tank!)

We use a little more rake than recommended.  When we had 3-5 laser28s racing regularly we seemed to have a slight edge going upwind.  That could have been trim, weight placement or driving.  As fewer Laser28s race now we concentrate on the phrf fleet more.  We have speed with the J80 (155%headsail) and the B25, my old boat.  On distance races we often correct ahead of C&C115 and C&C120 and finally corrected ahead of a well sailed Hobie 33 this year.  In heavy air we ease the lowers 2 full turns to get more mast lower mast bend.  The main is a paneled Kevlar(don't say it) film sail with a flat cut.  If we have a downwind distance race we leave the Dacron main bent on.  We use the deck tracks for the genoa.

Going upwind the genoa is trimmed 1-3" outside of the spreqder with no hook to windward of the leech.  I find boatspeed with all the genoa telltale flying back, inside just starting to float, then lose 2-3 tenth knot pinching.  "Veloce" a Laser 28 dealer from the 80's taught us that trick.  He cleans up in a large Milwaukee phrf fleet. Down a little for power in slop or chop but never below tale flying heading. I play the main for top batten telltale flying 80% and batten parallel to or a little open from centerline.  Hooking the batten end to windward hasn't seemed to help speed at all.  Main twist is adjusted for best boat speed thruogh the water.  In bouy races we do very little micro adjust (gear change) unless conditions change alot.  Jib lead may move tack to tack.  I feel it is more important to get the weight where you need it and the boat settled in than having crew moving arround unless the adjustment is right at hand. Halyard or outhaul adjustments should be done on an unloaded sail or you will stretch or damage the head or clew.  That is why my first post mentioned jib cunninghams,  release befor the tack, trim after the speed build.  We sail the boat fairly flat and I will ease big on the main and use only the leech to drive the boat when we get over powered.

Down wind we fly the pole lower than the clew to project more sail in deep running.  We keep the top batten paralel to the boom and slightly over trim the main when needed to keep the spin leech slot open for air flow.

WarBird crew include 5 of us who have been racing together for 9-10 years first on the aforementioned B25 , now on Laser28.  The crew is wonderful at helping with prep and paint, maintenance and repair, hauling and launching (cocktails to follow).  One crew is always ready to swim the boat(clean the bottom) with or without me for every weekend event.  We develop prospect regularly and have a pool of 4 miore experienced crew todraw from.  None of us are "Rock Stars" but we race together well and have fun doing it.  Each year we race 18-20 Weds Nites, 4-5 distance and 4-5 bouy series. 

we took our club "Offshore Series Trophy" this year and lots of 1st Place mugs over the years.  We think we are fairly well dialed in but we don't have the onedesign feedback that would help us improve.

Thanks for your input.

WarBird

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 9:17pm

Hi WarBird,

It looks like you're doing just fine with the boat! I've seen Laser 28's sailed quite differently but with equivalent speed. Most things you do seem good to me, here are some differences I'm noticing. We sail with 6 but are still under Class legal weight limit. Having the weight helps.

Our rake is 32' 6 3/4 (from center pin at the bottom of the headstay to center pin at the top). So we have a small difference there.

We use around 1050 pounds on the outters and what ever is needed on the inners to get us the mainsail depth we like. It's usually about 750 pounds. We set it for the sails and don't change it for different conditions.

We do about the same on the headsail trim, 1-2" is what we often aim for.

On the mainsail, I'd say we do quite differently. It might be due to the wave factor in your area. We usually sail in fairly small waves, so "flat water" sailing. We close the leech much more, the top batten will never be below centerline unless it's really blowing out there. We pull the main sheet in pretty hard and the top batten is to winward of centerline by quite a bit most of the time, the top telltale will fly about 30%-40% of the time. This increases pointing ability and doesn't hurt the speed. If we do lack speed we'll ease it a bit.

Also, you haven't mentionned the backstay. When sailing upwind, we play with the backstay a lot. This is the power control of the boat because it has two main effects, when you increase tension: 1- It bends the mast thus flattening the main to depowerer it, 2- The increased tension on the rig reduces headstay sag thus depowering the head sail.

We try to sail the boat as flat as possible, so when sailing upwind, we play the traveller a lot. We play the backstay if the wind speed changes to control overall power. Note that backstay changes require to you to modify the sheet pressure of the main to re-establish proper twist.

 Here are some pictures

Magog 2006
http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=595838
http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=647376
http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=651923
http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=652851

Cheers,

Luc Gregoire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatjohnz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 February 2009 at 10:41pm
Really great info. Let me just ask because I could not tell from the photo's....
Do you play the lapper tension (ease sheet or haul clew outboard of the cabin top lead) so that you can keep the main just-off center, OR
Do you keep the lapper hard to the cabin top and primarily play the main ?
My basic question is whether you play the lapper or play it. thx, john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarBird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2009 at 1:02pm

Luc

Thanks for all the info.  Yes we generally have chop to power through but I will try this year to get more windward curl to the upper batten if it doesn't mess up boat speed.  I had such neutral helm our first year on the boat that I went to 1-1/2 - 2" extra headstay for a little more feel and to make the rudder work a little more upwind.  I may go shorter on headstay this year to see how we do, how it feels.  We work the backstay when we need to,  our pressure is often fairly even.  The traveller gets alot uf use in the breeze.

Again, Thanks and good sailing

 

WarBird

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2009 at 10:24am
Hi fatjohnz,

We set the lapper to the conditions for best feel and speed consistency. We don't play the lapper going upwind, we only re-adjust trim if the wind pressure changes. We use the standard lapper leads, no inhauler or outhauler. Let me explain how we set it.

We have a mark on both spreaders for best reproduction of the settings. We use a tripe of black electric tape around the spreader at a distance of 7 inches from the tip of the spreader.

This is the mark we use in flat water sailing, we sheet in the lapper until the leech reaches that mark. We also have a mark halfway (about 3.75 inches) for rougher waters. In very heavy winds and seas, we let the leech go all the way to the spreader tip but never looser.

Halyard tension and finding the proper hole to use for the lapper is critical for performance. We use the knots meter and our feeling of the boat to determine the best setting. If you don't have the correct hole, the speed will not be steady and the boat will be harder to steer. When we have the proper hole, speed is much more constant and the boat seems to steer itself, very good feel on the helm.
Luc Gregoire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatjohnz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2009 at 1:47pm
Ahhh , i wondered why there was black tape on my spreaders. Are you viewing the adjustment from the helm or the winch? thx, john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2009 at 3:10pm
It's the trimmer's job to set it and it's best viewed by the him/her when they are at the winch pulling the sail in after a tack.

The mark can also be seen through the mailsail window (at the spreaders) but it makes it harder to see the changes in trim. When in doubt, we go down to the winch and verify trim from there.
Luc Gregoire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatjohnz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2009 at 3:48pm
My jib leach must be just a little bit too long cause i have not been able to trim the leech inside the end of the spreader. Some very helpful person (i lost the email so please remind me who you are) suggested outhauling the sheet a couple inches and shazam, i was able to trim as described and got much better balance and speed.

Do you have similar suggestions for trimming the genoa? Leech on the spreader? What about the foot (when we trim tight, the foot gets stretched around the shroud). thanks for any tips, john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2009 at 3:55pm
Hi fatjohnz,

I find it odd that the leech would extend so much, what is the make of your sails?

We don't use outhaulers on our boat.

For the genoa, we set the cart so that the foot of the genoa just touches the shroud at the base (it should not be stretched around it) and the leech is about 2 inches away from the spreader. The distance from the spreader can vary a little bit depending on the sea conditions (amount of waves).
Luc Gregoire

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khardy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2009 at 2:32pm
Quote: Originally posted by lucgmix on 16 May 2009
Hi fatjohnz,

I find it odd that the leech would extend so much, what is the make of your sails?

We don't use outhaulers on our boat.

For the genoa, we set the cart so that the foot of the genoa just touches the shroud at the base (it should not be stretched around it) and the leech is about 2 inches away from the spreader. The distance from the spreader can vary a little bit depending on the sea conditions (amount of waves).
We use the outboard genoa track and an in-hauler.  The in-hauler is run on the inboard genoa track.  In flat conditions we pull in the in-hauler and sheet the genoa such that the foot is strapped around the shroud base and the leach is just touching the spreader.  In a lull you'll need to ease some so the spreader doesn't poke the sail.  This is counter intuitive to some since most boats like a 2-3" space between the spreader and the sail leach.  However, keep in mind the L28's got wide sheeting angles on for the genoa and that the spreaders are quite large for this size boat.  Also, we sail in flat water.  I would modify this if sailing in waves.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarBird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2009 at 11:15pm

This has been a great learning experience for me and I thank each of you who have added some insight for us.  I have set my forestay to 6 3/4" from 8 1/4' the last 4 years. If I find we've lost something I may go back long.  My backstay adjust is now at least 1'1/2 ' short of the cam cleat, that 1-1/2" at the headstay pin must equate to 5" forward at the top of the mast, 20 inches of line at the 4:1 back stay adjust.  Our clews will be different, up some now, also.  Boom will ride higher so the traveller will seem different, a whole new boat after 4 years of 32' 8 1/4". 

Thanks

WarBird

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2009 at 2:11pm
32' 8 1/4" is very long indeed. I once tried it at 8
" and found the helm very heavy. Its interesting to note that the L28 doesn't actually develop any weather helm when u increase the rake, but rather the helm just gets a heavy feeling, you notice this aspect more in the bigger wind ranges. But the helm always remains neutral on this boat.

We did some rake testing before production started and found that 32'6 3/4" pin to pin was the minimum rake, because any less than this the mast was actually getting pulled against the mast base casting, resulting in the lower section of the spar being forced straight, not a nice uniform mast bend profile at all. We started testing at 5.5" and kept increasing the rake until you could see a uniform mast bend from top to bottom. This was all done with the boom removed and sighting up the aft side of the spar. It was amazing to see that anything less than 32ft6.5" definitely compromised the uniform bend in the spar. So we settled on 6.75 being the safe minimum

The result of all this was to establish the correct forestay length so that we could build them keeping in mind that we wanted to sail the boat with the turnbuckle fully closed.... this enabled us to be able to loosen it all the way off so that the rig could be dropped without having to loosen any of the shrouds. Min Forestay lengths from the factory were set to 32ft6.75" (turnbuckle fully closed)for this reason. Dropping and raising the mast now meant all we had to do was loosen or tighten the forestay turnbuckle.

Personally, I've tried various lengths and like Luc I'm always somewhere between 6.75 and 7.5" Obviously min length for big air conditions and longer for lighter conditions. The consensus I believe now is to establish a base setting of say 7.5" for light wind range, get your lowers setup for this(loosest pos)....Then when wind gets stronger all u do it tighten the forestay down some. This tightens the lowers mostly and some on the uppers which you will need as you start to apply backstay. This works very well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatjohnz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 June 2009 at 3:47pm
I also say thanks for the great advice. Your jib trimming suggestions have been very helpful.
Lucgmix, My sailmaker is PointSails(dot com) They cut the sails for my previous boat and they cut my Laser28 lapper based on my measurements. Either my clew is a little low or maybe I have too much rake.
I will check the rake based on the most recent comments. I'm currently using the outhauler to flatten the leech but if I change rake or raise the tack point a little, this could be eliminated.
I also see the advice to contact Bill and Denise for sails which I will keep in mind.
Also, can you confirm 34/30 (from the tunig guide) for shrouds tension?
thx, john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucgmix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2009 at 10:03am
Hi Fatjohnz,

The tension meters are not exactly all equal in their readings but what we usually have is around 32 on the upper shrouds and 28 on the lowers. Note that we adjust the lowers to get the mast pre-bend to best suit the cut of the main. That means that if your main sail is cut fairly deep, you will loosen the lowers to get more pre-bend, which flattens the main and on the opposite, tighten the lowers to get a straighter mast if you main is cut flat.
Luc Gregoire

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