PHRF

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   Another fact most handicappers and club programs miss is that you are not supposed to rate boats that are far apart in handicap. Handicapping only works if the boats are similar in rating. But with the decreasing number of boats out racing this has been forgotten. An example is the J/24 vs a L28. These boats are too far apart rating wise. In some conditions the 24 will sail as fast as a L28 but the rating allows the 24 to win most of the time. So don't feel bad if a slower rated boat beats you because you shouldn't be racing against it to begin with. Unfortunately this perspective is transparent. I see some clubs racing dinghy's against keel boats? It doesn't make sense but at least we are out sailing.

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Bill Layton Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bill Layton Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 July 2013 at 12:11pm
	Another fact most handicappers and club programs miss is that you are not supposed to rate boats that are far apart in handicap. Handicapping only works if the boats are similar in rating. But with the decreasing number of boats out racing this has been forgotten. An example is the J/24 vs a L28. These boats are too far apart rating wise. In some conditions the 24 will sail as fast as a L28 but the rating allows the 24 to win most of the time. So don't feel bad if a slower rated boat beats you because you shouldn't be racing against it to begin with. Unfortunately this perspective is transparent. I see some clubs racing dinghy's against keel boats? It doesn't make sense but at least we are out sailing.

frfletch Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365	Post Options Post Reply Quote frfletch Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 July 2013 at 2:24pm
	Bill's is a good observation. This particularly applies in a ver short race. Last weekend in Squamish they did three races that lasted only 1/2 hour each max. A Martin 242 rating 168 is just not going to be beat in that amount of time. If you take it to the extreme, imagine a 5 minute race. You just get started, there are seconds only between boats, and then the race ends. When you apply the time corrected factor, the slower rated boat will win against anything. Race committees should be more sensitive to this, but then it just brings all this subjective material into it. So, as Bill has said: "At least they are out their sailing."

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 July 2013 at 8:36am
	Very interesting. I will discuss with my sail maker. Thanks for the idea. ken

silversailor Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rookie Joined: 03 July 2014 Location: South Haven, MI Status: Offline Points: 16	Post Options Post Reply Quote silversailor Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 March 2015 at 8:38pm
	OK Fletch. I understand the changes to the 155 you suggest. But, if I'm sailing strictly PHRF and buying all new sails, what else does everyone recommend? Lapper? Class main? Sspin or aspin? (Anyone add a sprit and sail with an aspin?)Fabric recommendations? Thanks all.

Bill Layton Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bill Layton Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 March 2015 at 9:05pm
	There have been many handicap sailors who figure they are wiser than Bruce Farr. However it's been our experience that the standard one-design class boat and it's equipment is fastest. We have seen this many times in many events where a modified boat (in some cases, heavily modified) was raced against the standard class boat and the standard boat always won. The original sail inventory still applies even when racing handicap. Read the class rules if you want details on the sails here: http://www.laser28.org/Class.aspx?selpage=Rules Edited by Bill Layton - 28 March 2015 at 9:06pm

silversailor Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rookie Joined: 03 July 2014 Location: South Haven, MI Status: Offline Points: 16	Post Options Post Reply Quote silversailor Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 April 2015 at 5:32pm
	Bill, I'm looking at a Laser 28 later this month that is for sale. I believe it has it's original sails that I plan to replace. Please send me a quote for the new sails that you recommend. I will be racing PHRF, not class. I saw the post for that carbon Doyle main. Worth it? Thanks, Alan

John Mills Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 01 February 2016 Status: Offline Points: 122	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Mills Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 April 2016 at 5:28pm
	I know your post is old but I have a few questions . Are you sheeting to the upper track? Do you have any pictures ? Are you sheeting inside the chain plates or , between them ? Edited by John Mills - 03 April 2016 at 5:31pm
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Winner Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 07 September 2011 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote Winner Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 April 2016 at 6:02pm
	Lapper sheets to the forward track on the cabin top (inside shrouds). Genoa sheets to the aft tracks with the sheet outside the shrouds. Many L28's have been fitted with an updated genoa track that is further inboard allowing for a better sheeting angle. See: The aft track on the cabin top I believe is for a older style genoa? Others probably know more but I never use it. Edited by Winner - 03 April 2016 at 6:03pm
	Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON

Bill Layton Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bill Layton Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 April 2016 at 8:58pm
	All evolution/quantum/doyle Genoa's sheet to either the cabin top track or the lower track. The North Genoa's are only designed to sheet to the upper track only.

John Mills Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 01 February 2016 Status: Offline Points: 122	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Mills Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 12:10pm
	Thanks Winner , just what I need , Bill sent me some too (thanks again) Just curious do you ever get near the front of the track or generally center and do you have a 155, ? When I order a new 1 I understand it will be bigger than my old one and some pics the track is even with the back of the window and some just a little farther back like yours
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Winner Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 07 September 2011 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote Winner Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 12:57pm
	My genoa is a 153. We always use the back portion of the track unless we are off the wind. Haven't figured out a system for barber hauling yet. I would put the track a bit further back but this one was installed by a previous owner. Our just install a longer track so you have more options. I think mine is a 24" track but I'm not 100% sure.
	Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON

John Mills Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 01 February 2016 Status: Offline Points: 122	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Mills Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 4:39pm
	Winner - Thanks again for the info . I sailed on a good friends Laser for a few years so I am reasonably familiar with where we sheet the 153 on his boat- a little farther forward than you do , I assume it is a variation in the sail cut . I was so impressed with the boat I had to buy one - not easy to find one. New to me so I have never had it in the water so I am really struggling with where to put the new lower tracks . No idea really where my sails sheet (a 3dl ) upper track I am told although some say as it is a newer one it might be cut for the lower track , to complicate things it is off a different laser . I want to put the track where I will need it for the new sail I will eventually need to order which will be bigger and definitely cut for the lower track . Oh well it is just a boat - time to drill the holes and live with it LOL . Edited by John Mills - 04 April 2016 at 5:47pm
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Bill Layton Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bill Layton Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 4:54pm
	John, The pics I sent you show where the lower track goes for all Evolution Genoas. North has not updated any of their designs since 1990 so it only uses the original upper track. Hope this helps.

John Mills Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 01 February 2016 Status: Offline Points: 122	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Mills Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 5:52pm
	Yes Bill - it helps a lot . Stuck with the sails she came with till the budget recovers. Guess I will still put the tracks on but won't have any use for them just yet . Have to drill for tweakers and the cabin top cleats anyway plus fill the old barber hauler/tweaker cleat holes . I like the north stuff, however for this boat I think the evolution stuff is the way to go .
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Winner Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 07 September 2011 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote Winner Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 6:16pm
	I'd be curious to see a picture of a genoa sheeted appropriately through the upper cabin top track. The evolution genoas look just plain silly tracked up there.
	Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON

John Mills Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 01 February 2016 Status: Offline Points: 122	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Mills Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 April 2016 at 7:01pm
	Yes , seems wrong , I understand the ideal sheeting position is somewhere inside the window , obviously not an option. I am probably overthinking , bit of a kid in a candy store as it is the boat I have wanted for many years . Plan is install the tracks and try all options , I am pretty sure Bill knows what he is talking about though .
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