PHRF
Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
Category: Laser 28 General
Forum Name: General Forum
Forum Description: All the topics that don't fit elsewhere
URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=643
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 11:51pm
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Topic: PHRF
Posted By: Seawolf
Subject: PHRF
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 5:12pm
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We are racing PHRF here on flathead lake, Montana, and I need defend my argument for my current PHRF rating of 138. US Sailing PHRF for the Laser 28, has us as a average of 138 or a 129 as one design racing. My question is; why would a ODR be rated lower than a non ODR? I would think if someone where to break away from the ODR rules it would be to make their boat faster? Also I would like to hear from those who are racing PHRF what their handicap is, currently we don't get penalize for the bigger headsail,
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 5:14pm
| It is because the one design configuration has an oversized pole and an over girth chute. We are very competitive with rating of 129 as long as it's not too choppy. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 5:28pm
| We are 123 in Montreal. The boat has been modded by many people thinking they can do better than Bruce Farr but in all the races/regattas I've seen, the stock boat always wins against modded boats. I've seen some pretty extensive mods too like a lengthened spar with jumpers, much larger mainsail etc. However the stock boat was always a strong one-design racer who competes regularly against well sailed L28's. |
Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 8:42pm
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Lake Erie we rate 135 under PHRF-LE. I'm told its due to the Lake Erie chop which can be short and steep. ------------- Dick #122 |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:23pm
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Here in Thunder Bay (where we use Lake Michigan PHRF) I'm at a 126. To think the pros in Montreal are at 123 and I'm only a few points higher here... although I have heard that if I stick to the lapper and don't use a genoa I'd rate at 132 for LM PHRF.
------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: WarBird
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 10:58am
| It is more about similarly rated boats than the pure number.LMPHRF number is driven by a boat that sailed with empty tanks, just enough fuel, cleaned bare gloat bottom, virtually no extra year onboard. In other words, a well prepared PHRF boat. Didn't hurt that the skipper was dam good at racing the boat too. Look more at the number spread to an S2 9.1, aB25 or aJ30. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 5:13pm
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I agree with Warbird, whose old boat now lives directly next to mine on her trailer at West Van Yacht Club. By-the-way, she is one of the best examples of Lasers of that age that I have seen arrive here. PHRF reference numbers vary substantially from place to place. BC is about the worse because a committee, some years ago, decided that it would narrow the time-on-time numbers if they changed all base rating by adding 10% In that way, say a 135 rater would go up by 13 points, where a 110 rater would only go up by 11, so it tended to reduce the gap. What a mess! Today the basic Laser is rated at 150 with a code 5 spinnaker (almost no one uses one of those). The class kite is a code 9, so -12 for the class kite. However the class kite is not maximized under code 9........mine is, but doesn't meet class rules. Etc, etc, etc. Also, ratings are awarded based on a really well prepared yacht. Not one that has BBQ's hanging off the back, etc.
The best one can hope for, and take satisfaction from, is to have a set of numbers that group boats of similar speed and place them in the same division with other like-sailing boats. Yes, for most that may be the J-30, C&C 35z, etc. What is also nice to know, however, is that the Laser can be sailed down to much lower numbers with the right sails and rig tuning optimized to PHRF (very similar to class), and a crew that is really hot. Luc Gregoire reports being competitive to a number below 100. Voila recently did a race in which our elapsed time was better than all the boats in the division above us rating from 50-100 and included all the Melges 24's, etc. I was only a lowly driver that day, and another guru was calling the shots. The idea of rating with a lapper as the largest sail has merit if one is not ghosting around and there are no waves. However, as Bill points out, it will always be difficult to beat a really well drilled crew and a well prepared boat. The guru I refer to in a moment of frustration in that race that we so convincingly won, told me not to spend another dime on making the boat go faster, since so much time was available to be saved through better crew work, and he could count off the time lost to minutes and seconds at each operation that wasn't done really well. He wasn't very diplomatic about it! :-( |
Posted By: Jon167
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 6:27pm
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My largest headsail is the lapper and I rate 135 PHRF-LO(lake ontario) if I went with a 155 genoa my rating would be 126. ------------- Jon Pandora Hull#167 Lake Ontario SBYC Past President LYRA |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 6:46pm
| I am appreciating the feedback, lots of good information. One thought is to go to a smaller/lighter pole and spinnaker which means happier wife and higher PHRF (138). Another thought, just deal with it. We mostly been using a 155 (heavy) in 8 – 12 knots, then we drop to a lapper (105) if the wind promises to hold above 14 knots. Sea state is light with a little chop. Most of the time it is just the wife and I racing, not a top notch crew, so we have to depower earlier then most others. The Race Committee Chairperson is a good friend of mine who races his Frers 30. He rates 132. Just making sure he is not trying to get the upper hand ;) I also will race against a J100, J27, SC 30. Last week end we were scraping by in front of most of them, another reason why he is thinking of lowering our PHRF to 129. Some of you are rated at 123, so I should be happy he is not trying to lower us even more! |
Posted By: WarBird
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 7:42pm
| Thanks frfletch, we tried to keep her pretty nice and I bet Bill, the next owner did even better. Look at the table in her when you get a chance, you will like the extra room. Seawolf, add 2 bodies to the rail and the boat will really light up in those conditions, 3 bodies even better. Remind everybody to check the gusher pump installation. 109, 169 and one other in our olf fleet of 5 had the gusher pump plumbed backwards. Take a bucket of water below, put the pump intake hose in the water, go on deck, put the handle in the pump and pump up and down. If water exits the transom out let you are good to go. If the hose in the bucket blows bubbles crawl back in the transom and switch the hoses. Double check the clamps on everything while you are back there. These boats are 25 years old! |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 02 July 2013 at 9:36pm
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Seawolf, ditch the 155%. That thing sheets outside the spreaders and clews at 11.5 degrees off center. Everything will outpoint you. We use a smaller #1 to get around that problem and we can point with anyone. I firmly believe the 155 has no place on a Laser 28. If you are racing 2-up, just use the lapper.
Here is a point of interest: I am always trying to make the point with crew as to how important it is to get the weight out on the rail. Recently I was sailing back from a race, and all the crew had taken a fairy back with the exception of one of my women crew members. We had the full main and lapper and were dancing along doing roughly 5.6, sailing between 28-30 off the wind which was reading 18 apparent. We were sitting on the rail with feet in. I asked her to take the helm and steer between 28 and 30 and see what was the top speed she could achieve within that band. She reported speeds of 5.54 to 5.62 max. I then went out to the rail, slid my butt out so as to be "cheeks to the teak", and hung over the lower lifeline like a piece of laundry. When I looked at her she had this huge smile on her face as we went through 6.5 hitting 6.64. I weigh 175 lbs. only. People spend untold fortunes doing things to make their boats faster, but are to shy to insist that crew really hike out. I find that most crew, unless extremely dedicated to the cause, treat hiking casually. Oh yeah, we are sitting on the rail. However there is a huge difference between sitting on the rail and really getting out there to the max. If you were to scale the boat and place it 15 degrees off horizontal, on a piece of paper, then estimate the cg of a crew member who is casually sitting on the windward rail, you will find that he is just marginally sitting on the windward side of center. His weight, in fact, may only be about 1' to windward or something like that. Now draw him really hiking. His cg will be easily double the distance from the center of the keel. If that person weights 150 lbs, it is like replacing him with a 300 pounder. With this type of hiking, the boat lays flatter, and that in-turn puts that person's weight ever further outboard and makes it ever more useful. Now he is a 400 pounder. Now that you have a 400 pounder out there, the boat is moving one knot faster, and with that the keel is working 200% better and the boat is not loosing ground to leeward. Net, net, net the difference is humongous! In Martin 242 sailing here, the adage is that if a crew member cannot look down between his legs through his crotch and actually see water, then he is not doing his job. The windward rail is not a placed for people to sit while beating. It is the platform to offer minimum support at its outside extremity to support a very important member who is working hard to get his weight to contribute to the boat's performance. So, either get them to hike out, or hike home! Try my experiment on the water with your crew. Even if the main trimmer on a 6 man crew sits with his feet in, it will cost you .25 of a knot in 15 apparent. That's roughly 500 yards per hour! No PHRF points will help you if you do not go after that speed. |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 03 July 2013 at 9:48am
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This is digressing from the post's original topic but to pick up on Frank's comments above, and perhaps I'm out to lunch here, but has anyone ever tried trapezing on the L28?
------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 03 July 2013 at 10:41am
| Someone must have, but I'm sure it would not be legal under some rule or another that governs keelboat racing. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 03 July 2013 at 3:09pm
For non-racing, it would be an interesting experiment. Let us know how it works out! But for racing, some part of your body has to remain inside the lower life line. Granted when you are bent over the lower life line with your upper and lower body parts flapping in the wind, the only thing left is your but clenching onto the rails! Thanks for discussions, I am learning a little most of the time 
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Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 4:05pm
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West Florida PHRF we rate* 135 for windward / leeward races and 132 for all others. This is the same rating that a J-30 or an S29.1 rate. Our fleet has 4 S29.1s and based on 6-years of racing against them, factoring in their crew's ability, I would say our rating is lower than it should be relative to the S2s. But this is only because we generally sail in light to medium air where the S2 excels. In heavy air our job is much easier. I could get a 9-second rating credit if I used the lapper only - I would totally do this if our races didn't have so much reaching.
There is a push in our area do move away from PHRF and go to something more objective. |
Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 10 July 2013 at 9:55am
| Also, if somebody wanted to PM me their e-mail, I can send the 1997 MORC standard ratings. It's interesting to compare because it lists a MORC derived seconds/mile rating. Under MORC the S29.1 would owe us 6-sec a mile. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 10 July 2013 at 10:21am
| Khardy, Why is it that you don't do well in light to medium airs? Can you tell me specifically? Are you being out-pointed? Or out footed? The Laser should be strong in those conditions. |
Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 11 July 2013 at 7:59am
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We have trouble with one S2 in winds from about 6-kts up to about 15. He out points us. Having sailed with them on that boat I can tell you it isn't because they are better sailors or because there boat is better maintained. (They are as good sailors as us, but not better and they don't take things as seriously as we do. For example, we hold off on the beer till the race is over.)
When it gets really light, we are usually faster. And once we switch to the lapper, we are usually faster. It's the medium air that hurts us. I assume it a combination of 1) a smallish keel 2) our wide sheeting angle on the genoa and 3) the S2's masthead rig. |
Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 11 July 2013 at 9:20am
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The S2 7.9 fleet here tends to outpoint me and with their 181 PHRF I haven't been able to get near most of them. I own a lot of it as I am not as skilled as many of them are but they point well with that centerboard. ------------- Bill Ryan, Room4Crew, #155 |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 11 July 2013 at 11:22am
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Okay. I was pretty sure of the answer you were going to give me, because I, and every other Laser owner has had the same problem. The problem is indeed that the spreaders are too long such that you can't really sheet the #1 in. Here is what we did, and it absolutely changed the way we sail the boat, and the boats performance in all winds from 0-18 apparent.
We re-cut our #1 doing the following, and changing it into a code 4, which saves us 3 points phrf. Essentially we did the following: We raised the tack 8" from the bottom, and tied a strop of dyneema onto the tack that attaches to the boat's stem fitting where the sail would normally attach. This left us with the same luff hoist, but reduced our measured luff length. Next we shortened the length of the foot bringing the clew forward about 8"and up about 7" so that the sail trims properly to its sheet track. Finally the leach was hollowed out slightly such that it trims in front of the spreader. It now hits the spreader quite hard when trimmed to 5 or 6" inside the spreader tip, but misses it by about 1-1.5" when just at the spreader tip. We lost very little sail area to achieve these gains: 1. Three degrees pointing advantage on each tack. 2. More speed throughout the entire range. It super light air, we are sailing to a much higher angle so our apparent wind is higher, giving us more power with which to get more speed. 3. At the upper end of the range, say 18 apparent, where no Laser #1 previously sailed efficiently, the sail is trimmed tight in, which flattens and depowers it and letting it become more of a blade, so it does not back-wind the main allowing for the main to be trimmed fully in as well. She can sail very efficiently at 6.6 knots with 6 people in apparent wind up to 18.5. The boat will be on-her-feet and trucking. We sailed her recently up into this range with 5 on board, and still kept pace with 115 raters that can seriously point, such as Peterson 35's customized by Don Martin with deeper keels and higher rigs. 4. With the extra speed, and less boat angle owing to the flattening of the sail (made possible by sheeting in much further) the keel will work much, much better and the boat will suffer much less leeway which will result in a very much improved VMG. 5. The modified sail will be easier and faster to tack. 6. The boats that now give you trouble to windward will be well behind you. In up-down races this change, gave us 4 minutes an hour, plus the roughly 16 seconds per hour phrf benefit. The issue is that almost any boat can carry more sail when beating than when fetching. When beating one can also feather by coming slightly higher in the puffs to de-power which can't be done when fetching. Essentially, using the full #1 on a Laser, everyone is actually fetching because the sail is "let out" to accommodate the spreader. When you let it out it becomes a bag and the draft moves aft which creates more heel on the boat and back-winds the main, hence the sail does not work at all beyond 14 apparent, and does not point in all wind ranges. All bad! Meet with your sail maker, cut your #1 down, and you will smile when you look over your transom or down and to leeward to watch the same guys who currently beat you fade further and further away. It is like owning an entire new boat. Best of all, the entire fleet will hate you! But you will love me for this tip! :-) |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 11 July 2013 at 12:11pm
| Another fact most handicappers and club programs miss is that you are not supposed to rate boats that are far apart in handicap. Handicapping only works if the boats are similar in rating. But with the decreasing number of boats out racing this has been forgotten. An example is the J/24 vs a L28. These boats are too far apart rating wise. In some conditions the 24 will sail as fast as a L28 but the rating allows the 24 to win most of the time. So don't feel bad if a slower rated boat beats you because you shouldn't be racing against it to begin with. Unfortunately this perspective is transparent. I see some clubs racing dinghy's against keel boats? It doesn't make sense but at least we are out sailing. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 11 July 2013 at 2:24pm
| Bill's is a good observation. This particularly applies in a ver short race. Last weekend in Squamish they did three races that lasted only 1/2 hour each max. A Martin 242 rating 168 is just not going to be beat in that amount of time. If you take it to the extreme, imagine a 5 minute race. You just get started, there are seconds only between boats, and then the race ends. When you apply the time corrected factor, the slower rated boat will win against anything. Race committees should be more sensitive to this, but then it just brings all this subjective material into it. So, as Bill has said: "At least they are out their sailing." |
Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 12 July 2013 at 8:36am
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Very interesting. I will discuss with my sail maker.
Thanks for the idea. ken |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 28 March 2015 at 8:38pm
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OK Fletch. I understand the changes to the 155 you suggest. But, if I'm sailing strictly PHRF and buying all new sails, what else does everyone recommend? Lapper? Class main? Sspin or aspin? (Anyone add a sprit and sail with an aspin?)Fabric recommendations? Thanks all. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 28 March 2015 at 9:05pm
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There have been many handicap sailors who figure they are wiser than Bruce Farr. However it's been our experience that the standard one-design class boat and it's equipment is fastest. We have seen this many times in many events where a modified boat (in some cases, heavily modified) was raced against the standard class boat and the standard boat always won. The original sail inventory still applies even when racing handicap. Read the class rules if you want details on the sails here: http://www.laser28.org/Class.aspx?selpage=Rules |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 08 April 2015 at 5:32pm
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Bill, I'm looking at a Laser 28 later this month that is for sale. I believe it has it's original sails that I plan to replace. Please send me a quote for the new sails that you recommend. I will be racing PHRF, not class. I saw the post for that carbon Doyle main. Worth it? Thanks, Alan |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 03 April 2016 at 5:28pm
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I know your post is old but I have a few questions . Are you sheeting to the upper track? Do you have any pictures ? Are you sheeting inside the chain plates or , between them ? ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 03 April 2016 at 6:02pm
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Lapper sheets to the forward track on the cabin top (inside shrouds). Genoa sheets to the aft tracks with the sheet outside the shrouds. Many L28's have been fitted with an updated genoa track that is further inboard allowing for a better sheeting angle. See: http://postimg.org/image/9l0cb52zv/" rel="nofollow">  http://postimg.org/image/959v97slr/" rel="nofollow">  The aft track on the cabin top I believe is for a older style genoa? Others probably know more but I never use it.
------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 03 April 2016 at 8:58pm
| All evolution/quantum/doyle Genoa's sheet to either the cabin top track or the lower track. The North Genoa's are only designed to sheet to the upper track only. |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 12:10pm
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Thanks Winner , just what I need , Bill sent me some too (thanks again) Just curious do you ever get near the front of the track or generally center and do you have a 155, ? When I order a new 1 I understand it will be bigger than my old one and some pics the track is even with the back of the window and some just a little farther back like yours ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 12:57pm
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My genoa is a 153. We always use the back portion of the track unless we are off the wind. Haven't figured out a system for barber hauling yet. I would put the track a bit further back but this one was installed by a previous owner. Our just install a longer track so you have more options. I think mine is a 24" track but I'm not 100% sure. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 4:39pm
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Winner - Thanks again for the info . I sailed on a good friends Laser for a few years so I am reasonably familiar with where we sheet the 153 on his boat- a little farther forward than you do , I assume it is a variation in the sail cut . I was so impressed with the boat I had to buy one - not easy to find one. New to me so I have never had it in the water so I am really struggling with where to put the new lower tracks . No idea really where my sails sheet (a 3dl ) upper track I am told although some say as it is a newer one it might be cut for the lower track , to complicate things it is off a different laser . I want to put the track where I will need it for the new sail I will eventually need to order which will be bigger and definitely cut for the lower track . Oh well it is just a boat - time to drill the holes and live with it LOL .
------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 4:54pm
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John, The pics I sent you show where the lower track goes for all Evolution Genoas. North has not updated any of their designs since 1990 so it only uses the original upper track. Hope this helps.
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Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 5:52pm
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Yes Bill - it helps a lot . Stuck with the sails she came with till the budget recovers. Guess I will still put the tracks on but won't have any use for them just yet . Have to drill for tweakers and the cabin top cleats anyway plus fill the old barber hauler/tweaker cleat holes . I like the north stuff, however for this boat I think the evolution stuff is the way to go . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 6:16pm
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I'd be curious to see a picture of a genoa sheeted appropriately through the upper cabin top track. The evolution genoas look just plain silly tracked up there. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 7:01pm
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Yes , seems wrong , I understand the ideal sheeting position is somewhere inside the window , obviously not an option. I am probably overthinking , bit of a kid in a candy store as it is the boat I have wanted for many years . Plan is install the tracks and try all options , I am pretty sure Bill knows what he is talking about though . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |