how to sail fast in phrf racing
Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
Category: Laser 28 General
Forum Name: Sailing
Forum Description: Everything on sailing the boat
URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=780
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 9:18pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: how to sail fast in phrf racing
Posted By: Virginia H.
Subject: how to sail fast in phrf racing
Date Posted: 05 December 2017 at 9:13pm
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i have hull 191 and race in lower Chesapeake bay. Not having another Laser 28 to race against is hard to figure out the best speed . My PHRF rating is 138 instead of the 135 for Laser 28 on Chesapeake Bay due to an larger inboard engine with strut , shaft and folding propeller. I race against well sailed J30 at 141, J29 at 111 and Pearson Flyers at 138. They seem to point higher than me in lighter winds . I have a hard time beating them. I think I need to start to leeward to get up to speed first before i can point. Down wind I notice I can sail deeper and faster than most boats. I also notice I am more competitive with total crew on five instead of six. I would welcome any tips and like crew placement fore and aft, angle of heal, and are there any polars availability? Welcome all tips and stories of Laser 28 compared to other boats. I race with new 155% genoa, new tri-radial main, older 1/2 oz and older 3/4 oz spinnakers. I am using Pettit black widow bottom paint. I have genoa tracks that are as far against the cabin as possible. Thank you
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Replies:
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 6:09am
Good morning Virginia,
You've got me smiling. Your post looks like one I posted about 10 years ago when I got my Laser. There are lots of good posts in the forum from over the years; I'll try to find some of my favorites and repost the links when I have a chance.
Pointing will come from a well trimmed main on the centerline. The main controls pointing. You have to keep the boat on her feet however keeping heel under 15 degrees ( I think 12 is the magic number if I remember). But you'll find that the Genny is not happy pointing this high so you'll have to give up some pointing by letting the traveler down to get the main in sync with the Genny. The boat was designed with the lapper in mind and the lapper/main are able to point higher than the genny/main. Eventually you may be more comfortable racing on the lapper, removing the Genoa from your inventory, and getting a PHRF boost.
john
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Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 7:24am
I sail PHRF in Tampa - the only L28 in Florida that I am aware of. I too had trouble pointing. After a few years of learning we are rarely out of the top three in our fleet. We just finished winning this year's series. Here are my immediate thoughts for your post:
1. For the 155, I have two sets of genoa tracks, one on the deck very close to the window and another set on the cabin top just inside the 'knuckle' above the window. I feed the sheet through an in-hauler which is located on the upper track before going through a block on the lower track and then to the winch. I use the in-hauler to about 10-12 kts depending on how much chop there is.
2. Switch to the lapper earlier than you think. If you have a good lapper you could probably switch around 12-kts and certainly by 15-kts.
3. Personally I never look to see if my boom is centered as Fatjohnz suggests. I use the telltail on the top main batten to tell me if the main is in enough. In light wind, traveler all the way up and trim as much as you can without stalling the upper telltail. As wind builds the traveler goes down and sheet hard which will tighten the forestay.
4. If the boat doesn't have one already, I strongly suggest you put on a Harken weather sheeting car. It's about a $500 upgrade by the time you get the car, blocks, cleats, and traveler. But it's the single best investment I made to my boat in terms of boat-speed.
5. It's hard, but you can point with a L28. The key is to build speed first and then pinch. You must, I can't stress this enough, watch boat-speed up wind and sail to your boat's target speed. On my boat, in medium wind I keep the speed at about 5.7 to 6.0 kts. Once I hit 6.0 I pinch - sometimes a lot. The genoa will bubble, that's ok as long as you have the speed. As the speed bleeds off to 5.7 put the bow back down and get the speed back up. Assuming I have a good trimmer / tactician on board I my eyes are on the genoa telltails and the log about 95% of the time.
6. I think ideal crew is 6. More than 6 gets too crowded. Aside from lack of space, I've never felt too much weight hurt me in light air but I have often felt too little weight has hurt me in heavy air.
7. In heavy air learn to work the traveler. Put all crew on the rail. Whale the main-sheet in, use back stay as required. Drive the boat by watching the log and telltails (see #5). If the boat heels excessively ease the traveler. As she flattens out bring the traveler right back in. I'ts a constant adjustment. BTW, the real reason heeling is slow is the weather helm it causes. You know you are heeling too much if weather helm gets excessive. Fatjohnz observation that 15-degrees is the right amount of heel sounds right, but I personally don't use an inclometer - I judge excessive heel by the helm.
PM with an e-mail and I'll send you an old set of polars. Hope this helps.
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Posted By: Virginia H.
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 9:26am
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 2:45pm
Virginia,
We race among a pretty competitive phrf fleet in Vancouver that includes 2 J-30's, 3 J-29's, 2 Ross 911's, Dash 34, Davidson 29, Hotfoot 31, several Santana 30-30's, 2 Santana 36's, one C&C 35 MII, etc, etc. To windward we either sail faster than these boats, or at least make our corrected time on them. One of the Ross 911's was owned by Ian Jespersen and has customized keel drawing 7' and a customized rudder and rates 100. We can't hold her downwind in medium airs, but upwind we are ok corrected.
Our maximum sized headsail is a code 4 and lacks full head height and LP of a full 155, but it sheets inside the spreader tip about 5" and therefore points well. If you look at last Sunday's race results in the Snowflake Series races for West Vancouver Yacht Club (wwvy.ca) and go to "racing" then Snowflake Series, and seek race results, you will see how we performed with that lessor sized sail in conditions that started in 3 kts and finished with 4 kts.
What others have said of the Laser is correct, but each driver and crew has their own ways of making it go upwind, but it will. For sure do not get into a pinching competition with anyone. Either tack or go below with a 155 and just sail the boat the best she will do and make up the vmg with boat speed. We can point with them with the smaller sail, but you may not, though Bill makes it work as done Simone on Colibre, so it probably can be done.
Good luck.
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Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 3:01pm
Thanks Frank. Could you explain in more detail the Code 4 headsail and the 155? I admit I don't know a Code 4 from a 1 or Morse so in advance I thank you for helping me understand. - bill
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Bill Ryan,
Room4Crew, #155
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Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 28 December 2017 at 11:08pm
Happy Holidays! Sorry it has taken me so long to respond.
In about 2012 we had Jason Rhodes on board, who is a World-Class sailor, Olympic coach, and long history of competitive sailing at World level. He took one look at our use of a 153% genoa and then asked for a slow tack during which he would trim the sail. As we went through the tack, he pulled the sail in before it got outside the spreader and then just kept winching until the sail was about 5" inside the spreader and kinked around the spreader with the leach deformed badly from the shroud just below the spreader. AW was 18 kts, 6 on board, and the boat stood up and took off like we had never seen with no backwinding of the main. By his explanation, a standard 155 genoa on a Laser cannot be trimmed to beat because the spreaders are set wide to support a light rig that never intended to use a genoa. So, he says that beating with a 155 is really fetching because you cannot pull the sail flat enough and set so not to poke a hole in the sail with the spreader tip, the sail is actually let-out which brings the draft back, and also creates a curvature and fullness vertically as well with the result that it backwinds the main, increases heel, and the boat goes sideways. You just can't pull it flat enough to get the wind to go off the back straight.
His demo was amazing. We then had that sail cut to a luff length of 30.10' by braising the tack, then we added an 8" strop to the tack to attach the sail the the head of the boat and another strop to go around the forestay from the sail's actual tack grommet to hold it in. We also cut the LP down to 14.25' and hollowed out the leach just a little so that the re-cut sail would trim with its leach in front of the spreader. For all this we got a 3-point credit for a Code 4 sail instead of a Code 5, and the boat performed in all conditions for better than it did as a larger code 5, including in super light conditions because we could point so much higher. We still had it deflected a bit where the leach would touch the shroud just below the spreader, but it was worth it to get it in that close and be able to pull the sail into a better overall shape. Competitors who were used to out pointing us wondered just what we did to the boat. Most though we modified the keel, rudder, or something. The difference was remarkable.
Other pluses were that we had a much larger wind range we could sail in. We sailed effectively in drifting conditions, and were still effective in AW 18. No doubt we would prefer the lapper in 18 kts over the deck, but not so much as wanting to suffer a sail change on a short course. Further, we could lower the sail and attach the tack ring down to the deck thereby reducing the healing moment and sailed effectively to the windward mark in 20+.
Finally, having used this sail so thoroughly for 6 years after re-cutting (it was originally built in 2010 by Quantum, but modified by North in 2012), we just built a new sail that we have now raced 3 times, and this sail performs quite a bit better than the old one. This one has a luff height of 30.12 and an even shorter LP at13.92, but it was cut to be this size of sail and sets much better than our old re-cut Quantum did. This winder we have used this sail in three races, scoring 2 firsts and a third. One of the firsts was in winds of 3.5kts true, the other in 13kts true. Slam dunks both races. The third was in light winds of about 4-5kts true and we lead easily boat for boat against a Dash 34 rating 100 and a Davidson 29 rating 126. However the course took us around a small island and we got stuck in the shadow, whereas those two boats had the opportunity of seeing our misfortune because they were behind us, stayed close to the island and managed to keep moving.
Bill Layten and I have had many a discussion on this, and he and other Laser sailors in Ontario and Montreal find they are effective with a large 155 in PHRF fleets, however in our West Coast PHRF fleets, we were no match for anyone with our old 153. We could win the start and then be forced to either tack or just duck behind the transoms of the entire fleet. Every single boat could out point us. Other previous Laser owners on the West Coast sold their Lasers back in the late 90's and early 2000's because we frequently sail in light to moderate air, they they could not point either. Now, however, the Laser has become a popular boat to own know that they can point.
Ours is just one boat's experience, however I have had the benefit of both Jason Rhodes and Ross MacDonald to sail with and consult with, and they have led me in this direction, as well as collaborated on the sail's design. They are both World Class, and together in 2017 they were first in the Melges 24 North American's and Canadian Championship, where in both events they did not need to sail on the final day to win, then they were third in the Words. Neither one actually sail the Melges 24 in Vancouver at all.
Anyway, long explanation, but I do think that there is merit to re-thinking the design of the genoa for the Laser. At least that is my experience. Simone Gregoire has asked me to send him my old genoa to try in the Spring, and I will. That will be a good test to see how it performs against the greater Laser Fleet in the east, however it is an older sail.
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Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 31 December 2017 at 11:29am
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I agree with what's been said before. I consider myself partway through the evolution of learning how to sail the Laser 28, having owned the boat now for 6 years. We race in a small but competitive PHRF fleet with my main competitors being two Express 27's, a masthead rig J29, a C&C33 mkII, a Viking 33 and a few others. This year we finished 4th out of 9 boats in our division. Upwind we are now able to point as well as the other boats (but not outpoint them) and generally have better boatspeed than the C&C (which has the same PHRF rating as us). The Express 27's, one of them we usually are right with them while the other (which is sailed by an extremely competent sailor) we cannot catch upwind. The J29 is hard (nearly impossible I'd say) to beat, both upwind and down, even on corrected time (her PHRF is 19 points faster than us). Maybe that's us still needing to learn the boat better.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned thus far is the importance of backstay. Someone mentioned dropping the traveller in gusts but I think it's better to play the backstay (tighter in puffs). I've never sailed on a boat before where the backstay is so actively worked.
I've also been amazed at just how much mainsheet tension the mainsail needs. As one of my crew once said, "this boat will force you to unlearn everything you ever learned about sail trim" and we do generally find that we need to oversheet the main more than other boats I've sailed on.
Downwind, the boats tends to like hotter angles than perhaps typical, especially in lighter winds. I also do not like the way the boat feels if sailing close to DDW. Experimenting with best downwind VMG for different wind conditions is something I still need to work on. Polars do exist for the boat but I'm unsure how valid they still are these days? These polars for example state that in 13 knots of breeze downwind, optimum wind angle is about 158 degrees, whereas we would typically run at 140 degrees.
With that in mind, US Sailing, for a fee, will provide you with Performance Prediction targets. It would be interesting to get this info and compare the numbers to the old polars from the 1980's.
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Chris
Eclipse #240
Thunder Bay, ON
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Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 01 January 2018 at 3:13pm
Chris, We do spend a lot of time sailing DDW with good effect in medium airs (at least I think it works). In heavy airs given that the main can't be let out to perpendicular owing the the swept spreaders, it is quite easy to broach. We still do it, but it has been costly on occasions.
Great to hear your upwind performance is coming along. Sounds like your new Evo 155 is working well.
We also have difficulty with one particular J-29, and even more difficulty with a J-30 who has opted for a Code 6 main. He beats all the J29's hands down, as we do as well, but this one can outpoint us. Speaking to Jason Rhodes, I know he set up in-haulers for that particular J-29 and thinks that was the ticket. We also set up in-haulers on Voila, but I haven't tried them with the new sail yet. They just seem to interfere with the foot bending around the shrouds at the bottom. They are also messy on the deck, and I sort of like the clean deck without them.
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