I just installed a new rudder from the old stock rudder.  It was designed by Lief Bailey in Los Angeles.  It is approximately 9 inches long and 2 inches narrower from fore to aft and about same wetted surface.  Used it on last Friday night race.  What a difference.  The boat goes straight even when healed in a puff of wind.  I have not tried it in the Bay (San Francisco) but expect to go straighter without roundups as often.  I wish we had it on the Farralones Race.  We rounded up about 10 times coming back into the Bay but were did get up to 14 kts a couple of times. 

Has anyone else used a longer rudder?  What was your experience with the new compared to the old rudder?

John,

In the right conditions, the long rudder can be a saving grace.

Are you saying the one you have is about 9 inches longer than the original? If so I haven't heard of one that long yet. There are 2 rudders being used that were built by Laser International, the 'long' rudder is about 4 inches longer than original.

In a sea there is an obvious advantage as you are able to keep more surface area in the water. Some helsmen though do not like the longer rudder in flat water and light winds. The long rudder has a heavier feel to it so it takes a bit of getting used to, in fact a couple of boats have gone back to the short rudder for this reason.

As for having more control and keeping roundups to a minimum, the longer rudder will help but it is not a cure and will introduce more drag. By all means, depower the boat quickly in a puff to keep it on its feet. If you're flying the chute, this may mean letting out the sheet 3 to 6 feet very quickly.

I can't emphasise enough keeping the boat flat. If the boat has excessive heel it will go sideways at a good clip. It is always better to depower than to heel.

Let us know how you like the feel of your new rudder John. Good sailing to you on Peggy Sue.

Cheers,

I have been sailing a boat in Boston, Laser #138, with the larger rudder.  This was my first season with the boat and we have done very well, winning our season Wednesday night series and our class at the PHRF New England Championships.

At the first day of the PHRF New Englands in Marblehead we had 25 knot winds from the North East with 8 foot seas.  I thought the boat was very well behaved and never had any issue with rounding up because of steerage loss.  Of course I have nothing to compare this to because I never sailed with the smaller rudder, but the helm seems to be very well balanced.  I don't think I have ever sailed a boat with such neutral helm, even in a blow.   I did sail the boat as flat as possible with very twisted sails, more so than our competition.   We didn't always point as high, but we were fast. 

Stands to reason that the 2 boats in this post being offshore would prefer the longer rudder...more seas = more control with the longer rudder.

In your case Dave, the helm is generaly light but it can be set up almost any way you like it. With more rake in the mast you will have more helm, with less rake there will be less feel.

If you sail mostly in lighter air with the genoa then you will want more rake. If you sail predominately heavier airs with the lapper and/or working jib then less rake will work better.

As for pointing the boat, it is really a misnomer. I often see other 28s sailing a few degrees higher than us but sailing slower and generally with more heel. More often than not, if you sail the boat at maximum speed without footing, your VMG to weather will be better.

Cheers,

John

Did you use the same stock (stainless pipe) for the new rudder? I would be interested in getting more wieght out of the back end off the boat... perhaps a composite shaft would be a good idea.

I sail in Vancouver and at times in heavy air and nasty seas. I find the only upwind rudder control problems are in very gusty/shifty conditions where the mainsheet trimmer is simply not fast enough.

Downwind wind the boat is generally moving fast enough that there is lots of bite.

Did you take a hit on your PHRF rating?

Quote: Originally posted by Chris Ladd on 13 September 2002

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I sail in Vancouver and at times in heavy air and nasty seas. I find the only upwind rudder control problems are in very gusty/shifty conditions where the mainsheet trimmer is simply not fast enough.

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Whip that mainsheet trimmer into shape Chris!! (the mainsheet is my job) It's ususally much faster to use the traveller than the sheet to depower. We do not have any fine tune on the sheet, 4 to 1 only, and have 3 to 1 on the traveller.

I'm not convinced on the weight Chris. I've seen these boats raced as one designs with some boats virtually empty while others have lots of extras (us). As you aluded, you want to keep weight out of the ends, what we do to combat this is to keep our nav table down while racing. We store all of our gear there, nicely centered in the boat, and have a net from the compression post back to bulkhead on the forward side of the head to keep everything in place.

As for handicaps, it would be interesting to hear if there have been any adjustments because of rudders.

Cheers,

Paul

Quite often in the winter we sail uphill for close to an hour with winds gusting between 4-35 Knots with shifts of 25-30 deg. The Main trimmer many times is "out" of traveller very quickly and then starts dumping sheet. As the driver I try and drive off the leech of the lapper. We almost never reef, but as a hole carry alot of weight 1200+. The backstay is constently adjusted. What we have found, that in out PHRF fleet the more gusty and shifty the wind is the better we do. In this type of condition I tend to steer by feel only with a constent check on boat speed.

My point of the rudder post was my opinion that the standard class rudder was deep enough and that most spin-outs where a function of trim.

We too try and get weight out of the ends. We have found in under 10 knots at all angles the boat likes weight forward. Downhill in the light stuff I drive from in front of the traveller with at least two crew at or forward of the mast.

The original  rudder is a robust design however with the availability on composite materails I can see the advantage of losing a considerable amount of weight by going to a carbon stock.

Chris,

Sounds like you've got a handle on things and have put a lot of effort into it all. Still, driving uphill for an hour with big changes in direction and velocity doesn't seem over the top to me.

Anyway, no doubt that in many conditions there is no substitute for feel and experience.

It'll be interesting to follow the 'threads' on rudders and how people plan to tackle it.

Cheers...and good sailing!

Impact lost her rudder in an offshore race on Saturday night. 45 kt winds made for an exciting time in the 6 ft seas and lightning. We were racing in the Argosy Rose Bowl overnight race. Southwest winds of around 20-25kts had been pushing us at up to 11knots down a 35 mile leg to Oshawa. (You racers won't be surprised to hear that we passed a lot of boats and were in first place and grinning!). The squall from behind was approaching at around 10pm so we doused the kite, put a reef in the main and then got hit by the front. After an exciting roundup, the steering went soft. Something there, but we could neither gybe back to our course, nor tack around. We were done for this race (not the exact language I used). We jury-rigged our "Thor Heyerdahl" emergency rudder by cutting some notches in the lower companion way washboard and then lashing it to the spinnaker pole. We were now approximately 6 miles south of the Ontario shoreline and tried to steer to a safe harbour...it was a long night. Some or all of the rudder was still hanging there so the boat would regularly do a 360 as we tried to zig zag to shore. Fog and heavy rain came next and the waves remained. Fortunately the wind subsided and we were able to motor at about 2 knots. Safely made it into Whitby harbour where we toasted our adventure at 2:30am and slept well at anchor.

Now it's a new day. Any suggestions on where to order a new rudder? From feeling under the boat, there is still the metal rudder stock and some metal fitting in the water. I am guessing that the skin of the rudder torqued free and finally fell off during our viking expedition to shore. Thanks for any suggestions, Doug 416-544-0231

Only the early Laser 28's had fiberglass rudders. As I recall the first 25 boats or so. Subsequent rudders were manufactered using high density urethane foam only. There isn't any fiberglass in them at all. These "foam only" rudders were manufactured the same way as the Laser and Laser 2 foils. Amazing technology for the time. I still haven't seen one of these rudders fail and I still see 25 year old lasers with their foils in perfect condition.

I pulled our Impact's rudder post today (Hull # 105, I think that means 5th boat). All that is left after the rudder broke is the 3 ft stainless pipe rudder stock with about 2 inches left below the water line. Welded to the end is an 8 inch horizontal tab for the blade. There appears to be a broken weld at the end of the tube stock. How was the blade attached on these rudders? Was there any steel below this point or just fibreglass?