Reaching spinnakers
Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
Category: Laser 28 General
Forum Name: Sailing
Forum Description: Everything on sailing the boat
URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=648
Printed Date: 23 November 2024 at 12:24am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Reaching spinnakers
Posted By: Winner
Subject: Reaching spinnakers
Date Posted: 21 July 2013 at 8:46pm
Rather than hijack the genoa vs lapper thread I thought I'd start a new one, anticipating a good debate on reaching spinnakers.
A good starting point for reference is: http://www.ie.northsails.com/tabid/27006/Default.aspx
Earlier, fatjohnz stated, regarding his Code 0 which he attaches to the tack of the boat rather than a bowsprit:
"Its definitely a special purpose sail with specific attack angle. I mean
if you try to sail too close to the wind, you lose the luff and if you
sail too deep, the main will start to blanket.
When trimmed well, the apparent wind on the windex is a little forward of perpendicular. So its a reacher as advertised.
It covers the point of sail where you'd either have to ease a genoa
to the point where its barely drawing or you're trying to hold a
spinnaker with the pole all the way on the forestay. The code0 would eat
that point of sail up."
It's worth noting that the code 0 seems to have a smaller wind range than a symmetrical code 1 (40-85 vs 60-120).
The North Sails rep has quoted me $2300 for a symmetrical Code 1S sail,
so that's a pricey special purpose sail ; but under the right
circumstances, I think this would do well.
Fatjohnz: Does your code 0
attach to the usual tack point on the bow and if so, I'm assuming you can tack it
like a jib? When using a Code 0 with a bowsprit, jibing is relatively
straightforward but apparently tacking is quite a chore, because the forestay is in the way. That's why
Code 0's typically come with a built in furler. Furl, tack/jibe,
unfurl, voila!
I'm interested to hear people thoughts on different reaching spinnakers and the experiences they've had, either on Laser 28's or other boats.
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Chris
Eclipse #240
Thunder Bay, ON
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Replies:
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 21 July 2013 at 10:20pm
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For point to point sailing an assymetrical is a very important sail.
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Posted By: Mike V
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 6:35am
I am new to the Laser. On my 35 I had a asymmetrical reaching kite. It was a great addition. It worked when the wind was 80 to 120 true. I won overall a LOSH race with a fleet of 90 well sailed boats. I find the symmetrical spinnaker would not pay on angles more than 120 true. It feels fast but you are sliding sideways.
Mike
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Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 7:23am
Hi, I don't have a furler for the code0 yet so I am using a strop on the jib tack ring. When I get a roller, I'll move it back a little, or to one side or the other.
Jibbing and tacking are both pretty easy, the clew does not come back that far.
john
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Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 7:15am
As some of you will know, we've been using second hand SB20 (Laser SB3) asymmetric spinnakers on FarrOut for a couple of years. They're not ideal as they are built for a much lighter boat, so we have blown two to pieces in high winds but at £50-£100 each it's not so bad. The luff length is good at 10.6m and at 46m2 it's the correct amount of sail area. We have a small stainless sprit added.
In light airs we can take this kite up high and it can give advantages at 50 deg apparent wind. In big breeze they can be taken down deep and the crucial thing for the Laser 28 is that we can get weight off the foredeck in the gybe. Especially important in waves when we are all stacked at the transom.
Plus points: higher kite angles. Simpler, quicker, safer gybes. Downwind S2 kite used for dead down legs. Lot of fun (the young crew love big breeze ayso legs).
Minus points: can get caught with the wrong kite on and have to bare head change or sail angles. AP kite would be faster sometimes - you just have to know when that would have been. We use pole downhaul as tack line so would be less disruptive if we had a dedicated tack line.
I'm interested in the Code Zero discussion. Not a great deal of use in short course racing and I guess is better on a furler on a sprit so that it can be furled to tack. But as a boat that has got rid of the genoa I wonder how much more speed that you'd get over the genoa on a fetch. On a beat I think you're better off with the non-overlapping headsail. If it's really that light that the genoa is going to really help - Go Fishing! Code zero fills a too narrow slot between the headsail and the asymmetric for the expense for me (cheap campaign!) - but I remain to be convinced, it would be nice to have in the armoury for passage and offshore racing.
Cheers,
Jez
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Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 8:29am
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Hi, Sailing with a spin instead of a 150% is new to me. Can you say what the difference is between code0, S2, SB3.... thx, js
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Posted By: Mike V
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 9:35am
http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/23017/Default.aspx
This is the link from North. It gives you all the wind angles for each type of spinnaker
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Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 10:04am
Here is a link from Doyle which also describes the different types. Click on either symmetric or asymmetric to see details:
http://www.doylesails.com/racing/downwind/index.html
However note some differences between North and Doyle. For example North lists an S1 as being good for 60-120 AWA between about 3-13 knots, while Doyle lists an S1 also as 60-120 but only good to 7 knots.
The S3 for North states 75-125 AWA from 12-25 knots (assuming I'm reading that diagram correctly) while Doyle lists an S3 at 55-105 AWA 3-20 knots.
Of course the wind range will have a lot to do with sailcloth selection as well.
What I take away from all this is that these sails are obviously specialty choices for serious racers/cruisers that have money to burn. The overlap of wind ranges and angles between these different sails is very small, so conceivably you could purchase a number of them for slightly different conditions. The trick would be to see what wind angles and wind strengths you typically sail in and buy the sail(s) that best fit.
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Chris
Eclipse #240
Thunder Bay, ON
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Posted By: Mike V
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 12:49pm
A code Zero is illegal under PHRF. It does not fit their description of a genoa or a spinnaker.
PHRF-LO may allow the code 0 (zero) sail as a genoa or a spinnaker depending on the mid girth of the sail.
If the Mid Girth is less than 50% of the foot of the sail, it is a genoa and must be attached to the forestay as per the RRS. The lighter material in this case would make it like a drifter and would incur penalty/credits related to the LP%. If an LP of 170% is decided, it must be decided whether to carry it on the boat for the season along with the related penalty. It may not be declared on a light air day and then removed for the next race.
If the Mid Girth is greater than 75% of the foot of the sail, then it is a spinnaker and must be measured as per the assymmetrical guidelines in the manual. This would be a flying sail and would not be legal to use in an NFS division. All A-sails must be noted on the certificate.
If the Mid Girth is greater than 50% and less than 75% of the foot, then it is illegal according to PHRF-LO.
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Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 24 July 2013 at 12:31am
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One should keep in mind that the class spinnaker falls into the category of a code 9 under phrf so one takes a 12 point hit for it. However, the class spinnaker is not maximized as a code 9. So if you are a phrf racer, there is no reason to go with the class spinnaker when you can go quite a bit larger without further penalty. The Laser sails way above its rating upwind, there is no reason not to maximize downwind sail area (within reason) if sailing phrf.
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Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 25 July 2013 at 9:02am
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In Montreal PHRF assigns us a rating code of "5U55S" for the L28. The breakdown of this as follows: 5=Largest Headsail (no adjustment) U=Spinnaker (-15 sec adjustment) 5=Mainsail (no adjustment) 5=Propulsion (no adjustment) S=Miscellaneous (Spinnaker halyard sheeve above I dimension) (No adjustment)
The code "U" is for the spinnaker and assigns us a -15 sec penalty. Code 9 is a -12 sec penalty. Interesting that this isn't the same.
What is your PHRF rating code Frank?
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Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 25 July 2013 at 10:47am
Several years ago, owing to protests from older and lessor performing boats trying to compete with modern yachts, our PHRF board made an adjustment to all ratings by adding 10% to the base. This tended to give advantage to "slow raters" to even things up on the race course (ridiculous notion). So, for instance, a 100 rater went to 110, while a 150 rater went to 165, thus giving the slower rater a 5 point advantage in comparison to where she was. So.............our Lasers have a base rating of 150 based on all code 5, hence 5555. Voila carries a code 4 jib (+3), code 5 main (0), Inboard propellor (0), and a code 9 spinnaker (-12) resulting in a 141 phrf rating. Our calculation formula sheet is publicly posted by our PHRF Authority, so one can play with his sail dimensions to determine the resulting code he falls into. I will email that to you and you can post it if you find it useful.
I note you attract a 3-point larger hit in your PHRF environment for the class spinnaker. Not sure how that works. We also take no penalty for the hoist being higher than the I, as LLS and G are the determining factors.
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Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 27 July 2014 at 12:10pm
I see mention of both symetric and asymmetric spinnakers. Do some of you sail L28s with an aspin? Does it tack to the bow or have you added a sprit? If so, how long?
Thanks,
Silversailor
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Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 27 July 2014 at 1:28pm
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Last year I got a code0 which tacks to the bow. There's a narrow wind range where we use it but on a reach where you just can't hold the spinnaker, the code0 works great. js
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Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 29 July 2014 at 12:57pm
We use a standard S-1 Runner, maximized to code 9 PHRF. I have raised the hoist to the point where the steaming light was attached and ditched that stupid thing. Otherwise, the maximized kite fell below the pull-pit and was less effective, plus it blocked forward vision.
It is not uncommon that we experience off-wind legs where the spinnaker is adjusted anywhere and everywhere from perpendicular to resting on the forestay. In light airs we have carried that sail up to 45 apparent with good effect, but would not put it up in a 45 apparent prevailing situation. I would fear the use of an off-wind sail with a very narrow range of useful application. On the other hand, as Bill eluded to, point-to-point with a steady breeze blowing within the effective angles of a special purpose sail would allow that sail to be of an advantage.
Another point to consider that has aired in this thread, is the use of furling gear. We are sometimes coached by a world class sailor who objects to every piece of weight on the mast. His vote would be to strip the masthead of everything including the light, wind vane, instrument vane and anything else up there, and he would not sail without tapered halyards. One must keep in mind that our Lasers were designed to a ballast ratio based on a gross weight of 3,950 lbs. Guess what? As sailed our boats weigh about 4,650 lbs if you are really lean. We know the lead keel did not grow in weight, so that means we carry an additional 700 lbs above the water line before crew and their day bags…..all above the over-turning moment of the boat. With that in mind, sticking a furler on the front (worse place for weight) and running it up to 30'+ above the deck, or say 35' above the turning moment at the waterline, is just not a good idea unless the boat is set up to be cruising oriented. We have now added a 35 or 36' lever to muscle that extra 700 lbs. around depriving the boat from performance on all points of sail, but particularly upwind where about 75% of our race-time is spent.
In the end it comes down to "horses for courses". For us, we cannot make the case for an assy, but if I had one I would consider it for cruising as a couple.
This weekend we raced in Squamish. We did an inflow race (which is a run) with just myself and a 58 year old woman who had never been on a foredeck before. We lead until the take-down moment which we had to do in 30kts true doing 11+. With the tiller between my legs, the sheet in one hand and the tail of the halyard in the other, I instructed crew to grab hold of the sheet forward of the twigger, then when I called for it to trip the clutch on the halyard where I could feed the tail to enable her to take the kite into the companionway hatch. First issue: "What is a twigger"? Finally sorted that out and with one hand on the sheet, she did not have the power to trip the clutch under load. That's when we took the first take-down….not of the kite, but the boat. With that, she slipped below the lower lifeline into the water, but managed to clutch the lip on the opening of the hatch and hang on. We were near horizontal, she was in the water up to her waist, and I had already fired the guy, so things were not perfect. The boat would not come back up, however it almost did when the hand of God punched the boat down like a hydrolic ram and our competition (a J 30 passing us in the chaos) saw daylight under our entire keel. They said it was the first time they had every seen a keep completely horizontal with the mast in the water.
When the boat did come up, my crew woman (whom I had just met in the parking lot before we departed and had never sailed on the boat) said she felt like she was being catapulted up and only barely managed to hang on with those finger tips hooked onto the lip of the companionway where her paw marks I think are permanently etched into the kevlar. We once questioned if the mast could take the raised spinnaker hoist so high above the shrouds, but the rig has well proven herself to be capable of it.
A note to this story is that while our experience was the most spectacular, very few of the assy's got away unscathed and most took knock-downs somewhere in the same area.
All good fun!
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Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 29 July 2014 at 8:27pm
Fletch,
Great story. I guess I'll have to learn how to set and fly a symmetrical spinnaker.
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Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 22 November 2014 at 12:16am
Those that are flying asymmetrical spinnakers on a conventional pole, if anyone is, how/where are you attaching the tack block on the bow?
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Hull 147 - Angel's Share
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Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 22 December 2014 at 10:22am
Bump....Perhaps the conventional pole piece of my question was too restrictive of my previous post.....If you are flying any asymmetrical spinnaker on your boat, how and where did you attach your tack block to the bow?
Ron
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Hull 147 - Angel's Share
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Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 22 December 2014 at 11:05am
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Mine asym tacks to the jib ring on the bow. We don't use a pole. js
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Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 22 December 2014 at 3:47pm
Ours has a short stainless sprit welded to the bow. We have a snatch block lashed to it and use the pole downhaul as a tack line. The downhaul is long enough to take a retrieval into the companion way, it can be replaced back onto the pole when we go back to a symmetrical kite.
The sprit has a wire bobstay connected beneath but I think this is probably unnecessary.
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Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 22 December 2014 at 4:28pm
I would use the pole by placing it thru the pulpit by lowering it against the forestay. The mast end would be lowered to the bottom of the mast and attached. In short there is 2 tie down points.... one from tack shackle and around the pole to limit the height. The other one will tie the pole to the forestay tightly. You can do this with velcro or dyneema line. No need to gybe the pole with it setup this way. It won't be touching the pulpit at all. You could consider gluing a piece of rubber around the pole diameter where it'll contact the forestay.
I was thinking about a bracket that fits under the mast base nuts at the front. Obviously with a ring on it like the one that came on the mast but you could have it made so that it's offset to one side...this effectively would be positioned so that it centre's the front of the pole on the centreline of the boat, compensating for being on one side of the forestay. You'd have to sight this on land and put someone on the deck to move it around so you could position it correctly.
The pole would be used upside down... meaning the piston triggers are down and the aluminum part of the jaw is up. On the outboard end you could whip an aluminum eye in place for the tack line or just tie on a block. Then just figure out how to run the tack line back to a winch.
Lots of big boats with conventional spinnakers do this so they can run asymmetricals. No reason we can't do the same.
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Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 22 December 2014 at 6:03pm
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My main objective is to find a solid place to put the tack block. If I proceed with the asym idea, I'll strap the block with a belt like strap around the forward plate on the pulpit base. Regarding the pole, my needs may be different than others. I want to jibe the pole. Using a conventional pole with tack line and guys, I think I can project sail away from mainsail cover, and pull the pole back to allow her to run deeper with the asym up. Hopefully best of both worlds. As Bill mentioned, larger symmetrical spin boats are doing this with asyms and finding success. I think the conditions here on the Ohio River are a fit for this. Because of barge lanes, we have lots of beamy/reachy races. The start line might be set properly to windward, but the W/L marks are just about always in the same place no matter what the wind is.
Thanks for the input,
Ron
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Hull 147 - Angel's Share
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Posted By: Mike V
Date Posted: 28 December 2014 at 8:38pm
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Sparkplug has a D shackle mounted at the bow for the tack line. I have a small asymmetrical chute that came with the boat. If I was to do some serious distance racing I would fit the mast with an adjustable track on the mast for the spinnaker pole. Then you could drop the pole to keep it level and move the kite out in front of the boat. Then I could take advantage of the pole length and get an assy made to fit the pole with out a PHRF hit. If you are distance racing PHRF you should look into the numbers. A centre line tacked spinnaker get a 6 second credit. But you can not use the pole at all. The spinnaker will be smaller but it might be worth looking into.
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Sparkplug
Hull #182
NYC
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