Hull fairing around saildrive
Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
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URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=600
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Topic: Hull fairing around saildrive
Posted By: fatjohnz
Subject: Hull fairing around saildrive
Date Posted: 15 November 2012 at 8:41am
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The rubber oval covering the saildrive exit has not been my friend over the years. Gluing and fairing did not hold it. Screwing and gluing held it where it was screwed but edges sagged and peeled. I'm trying to anticipate whether gluing, screwing, and fairing will keep the rubber, including the edges in place or whether I glue, screw, and fiberglass/fair the edges or whether I should toss the rubber thing and fiberglass/fair over the entire hole. Opinions? Thanks for your help, John |
Replies:
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 15 November 2012 at 11:31am
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Class rules require that you use the rubber ring, which is really an ugly thing. The normal method of attaching it is by marine grade silicon. Voila does not use a rubber ring and has used a removable fiberglass fairing to the area. If you send me your email address, I will post pics as I do not know how to do it on this site. My procedure can be done without removing the sail drive using the rotary extension cable to a standard Dremel tool and the metal rasp bit held in the end collet. It is better to use the extension cable because the thickness of the Dremel drive motor (main unit) will not allow you to get as close as you would like to the saildrive leg in order to present the cutting tool to the bottom of the boat at a 90 degree angle. Around the hole in the hull, place some masking tape about 5/8" from the hole and mask all the way around the hole to form your guide. With the Dremel, rout out a relief around the hole around 1/8" deep to create the recessed seat onto which your fiberglass fairing will fit. Oe could make this seat wider, but on my hull I run into some counter-sunk screws that fit through the hull and are buried in the gel coat, but you may find them if you go beyond 5/8" from the main hole.
Now lay up some fiberglass onto a flat surface separated with some waxed paper or other form of release until your lay-up is equal to the depth of your recess. I lay mine up slightly less, and then top it with some low density filler so that when I fit the pieces into place I can sand the seating surface until the finish surface is flush to the hull. With some art board or some other type of material (shoebox cardboard will work) cut out the patterns that will fit into the recess and you may bring their edges up to within 1/8"-3/16" from the side of the saildrive leg. This would look like a miniture of the rubber ring. The inside hole of the rubber ring could be used to trace onto your patter to form the inside hole. This new oval ring must be cut into two pieces. Mine are cut at the center of the leading edge and the center of the trailing edge to facilitate getting them into place as a single piece will not slip over the bottom gear housing of the saildrive leg. Trim your patter until it fits nicely into the seat. Now you can use the pattern to lay out the fiberglass fairing material. I advise cutting this to be slightly oversized, and then trim it down with some 80 grit paper on a sanding block, or use some other form. I trim the inside of the fairing with one of those little drum sanders that goes into a Dremel to get the inside to fit nicely around the leg. With this complete, again use your Dremel extension to hold a small drill bit so that you may now drill the holes into the newly made fairing fiberglass and into the hull. For this I temporarily fix the ring into place with a couple of dabs of silicon to stabilize it. I equally space bout 4 holes on each half. Additionally I do something with the front and back to join the two pieces together but that is more easy to explain in my photos. When the holes are drilled (these should be sized to be used as a guide hole for #4 counter-sinking flat head wood screws), remove the new fiberglass fairing plates so that you can now apply a counter-sink bit to the holes so that the screws will go in flush. Please note that you must use an appropriate sized drill bit. Neither fiberglass nor kevlar will allow you to force a screw into a hole that is undersized and doing so will result in a broken screw. If this job is done carefully, these plates can always be removed to facilitate removal of the saildrive and replaced. You may further refine this fairing by slipping either a large "O" ring around the sail drive, or some cheap packing rod from the local hardware store that is butt-end glued together. Slip this up the saildrive until it is just above the fairing, and then finger-in some marine silicon to fair the new fairing to the hull. Want more refinement? Cut a little piece of the glass fairing and double up its thickness somewhere on the inside of the main hole well inside the seat ledge and drill a drain hole into it to be plugged with another screw. Now when you set the plates, seat them with a little bead of silicon around the seat and fair in the edges with the silicon. After you fair in the gap between the fairing and the silicon, you will have a water-tight compartment above the hull bottom and this will both reduce drag create several pounds of additional hull floatation. Note: You will not be racing such a set up at the North Americans! |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 15 November 2012 at 11:35am
Sorry for the typos. I think the arthritis in my hands is creating errors in my typing. I really do know how to spell pattern. 
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Posted By: Jon167
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 7:07am
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surface prep is everything..... ------------- Jon Pandora Hull#167 Lake Ontario SBYC Past President LYRA |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 8:23am
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A properly installed rubber as it was done at the factory will hold perfectly for 15 years. I do these all the time. The 3 most important things are: 1. surface prep as Jon167 stated... this means remove old rubber completely and sand off all old glue/sealant until you have a clean sanded gelcoat surface. 2.Buy a new rubber skin from bukh with the special waterproof contact cement they sell for it.... without this it won't stay stuck to the hull. I tried every other glue I could find and nothing seemed to work except for the one sold by bukh for this very purpose. 3. Sand the surface of the new rubber skin that will be bonding against the hull, at this time sand a radius onto the edge (as we did at the factory) Now wipe all surfaces down with laquer thinner. Install rubber onto saildrive leg so that its pushed into position onto the hull....now draw a pencil line around the perimeter of the rubber onto the gelcoat with the rubber sitting correctly without wrinkles on it. Now lower the rubber so that it sits hanging on the lower part of the drive. Get your glue and a clean brush and coat the hull following the pencil line as the edge and coat the full rubber. let sit until it's not sticky and press into place exactly onto perimiter of the pencil line. Get some sort of hard roller and roll the rubber onto the hull....this exerts pressure onto the rubber. This is the method used at the factory and subsequently for repairs afterwards and I've never had a problems with it coming off. All Bukh parts can be acquired from Keith Strutt at 613-634-8100 in Kingston Ontario
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Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:51am
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My solution to the rubber gasket was laying up several layers of fiberglass cloth on a flat surface (on wax paper) and then trim it to the size of the original gasket after curing. This leaves you with a very thin lip on the hull after installation. I've had good results using 3M Super Weatherstrip Adhesive for automobiles with both the rubber gasket and the fiberglass layup. My racing has been strictly PHRF. ------------- Dick #122 |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 8:37am
| As always, you guys are a wealth of information; thank you. I'll keep the rubber gasket for now but Fletch, I am interested in your pictures if you'd send them to jstephenson at hvc.rr.com. Happy Thanksgiving! |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 2:29am
| I hage an extra set of these plates and will photo them here at home tomorrow and then put them together with photos of the boat as prepped before mounting them and then email them to you tomorrow. Hope you and family had a good Thanksgiving. |
Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 6:13am
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Great thread everyone. I installed a new gasket last spring however must have missed a spot so I will take it off and follow the directions Bill noted above (which I did not have and see where I might have missed!). I "assume" I can re-use the gasket, correct? Clean it up of course but re-apply? I am going to sand the saildrive unit anyway, years of various paint build up has left it grooved and not smooth so I thought this is the right time to do it per the instructional thread noted. Thanks for the guidance! :)bill ------------- Bill Ryan, Room4Crew, #155 |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 09 May 2014 at 8:57pm
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Hi all. I had the chance to replace the saildrive membrane on my boat last weekend (old one had fallen off when I hauled at end of last season!). I thought I'd relate the experience here. Thanks also to Bill who sent me some tips via email. I purchased a new rubber membrane and the special glue from Crinmar. I'm not sure what's so special about the glue because it smelled like any other solvent-based adhesive (smelled like model cement actually) but I didn't want to take chances. Surface prep: I followed the instructions from above with some slight differences. First, I used a heat gun to heat the glue residue. But rather than scraping, I used a cloth rag to rub off the warm glue residue. I found this worked much better than a scraper. Was way faster and no chance of gouging the fiberglass. Then I sanded the remaining glue residue off to get down to bare gelcoat. For this I used a 4" orbital sander on low speed. I found 120 grit worked well. 150 would be OK. The trick is that a 4" sander is bigger than required, so some finesse is in order to make sure you don't sand more than is necessary. Once you've got a nice clean surface, I wiped the surface and the underside of the rubber membrane with laquer thinner. When installing the rubber membrane over the prop, be aware that there is a front and back to this thing with the opening being slightly wider at one end to allow for the tapered saildrive leg. I pressed the membrane up against the hull exactly where it needed to go and outlined it with pencil, then dropped it back down again so it was resting on the prop shaft. I then used a 1" metal putty knife to apply the glue to the hull everywhere inside the pencil line and also to the entire underside of the rubber membrane. It was a pretty cool day and this stuff still seemed to be drying pretty quickly so I had to work pretty fast. Lastly, press the membrane in place; using a rolling pin (or whatever you have handy) press firmly and roll from the inside of the membrane outwards, working the glue and any air pockets out. I went around the whole perimeter a few times to be sure it was a nice tight fit. Voila! See pics of surface prep and the final product. Just need to VC17 before launch. https://goo.gl/photos/JaLZYwdbYQogwA8e6 ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 6:00pm
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I will be replacing my membrane tomorrow, the old one is starting to split fore and aft of the opening. Just double checking, can the membrane slip over the lower unit of the saildrive? or is there some removal required?
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Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 9:22pm
| yes. No problem. |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 6:07pm
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Apparently the glue you use is very important and is no longer available here in North America , still available in Europe but it is not safe to air ship although Bill said it can still be gotten . It was Bostik A3 according to Crinmar (who can't get it either) . So I did some leg work and contacted Bostik for a north american alternative and they were helpful suggesting a product called 1685MC, used industrially to bond mop heads . Supposedly very water proof , this is my first year trying it and I will report any problems , it bonded extremely well could not pull it off but the water test this year will tell . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 6:12pm
| John where did you acquire this new glue from? |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 9:16pm
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How about 3m 4200? |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 11:13pm
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no, for 4200 ,previous owner did this and it came apart, being a bitch to clean up. Used the Bostik and no problems since then. |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 7:02am
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Available at Krayden in the US, they will ship it right to your door . I have lots as it comes in a quart can if anyone needs some and is close to Niagara Falls . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 8:39pm
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I'm launching in a couple of days and just noticed that part of my sail drive membrane us no longer adhered to the hull (about 1/8 of the entire membrane). I'm all out of the bostick glue. Anything else I can use in a pinch? ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 10:00pm
| It's not likely to change so just use it and prepare to replace it in a year or two. |
Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 6:55am
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I use 3M Super Weatherstrip Adhesive for automobiles and have not had a problem. ------------- Dick #122 |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 23 September 2016 at 11:41pm
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Follow up: Tried using 4200 to patch down the loose part and see if it would last the season and it did not. Peeling off again. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 24 September 2016 at 12:06am
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Chris, They use a special silicon adhesive for that. I don't have a rubber seal on the bottom so I can't help you unless you want to change to my method of dealing with it. I never liked that rubber thing down there. Frank |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 24 September 2016 at 3:07pm
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The original seal is glued on by a Bostik product that is no longer available here in north america (A3) - European boats can still get it but it is not safe to air ship so we can't . Crinmar used to supply it with a new seal . Bostik themselves recommended a replacement product called 1685MC which I used this year . It is an industrial contact cement product used to glue on mop heads - very waterproof . I will let you know how it held up when I pull the boat on Monday but it was still on solid when I dove on the boat at Can Am . Still have some left if you are anywhere near Niagara Falls .
------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 26 September 2016 at 12:18pm
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Update , the Bostik 1685MC held great , on just as solid as when it went in . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 26 September 2016 at 1:42pm
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I installed a new saildrive membrane before launch in 2014, using the guidelines posted here and I thought I did a very good and thorough job. Nonetheless, mine is peeling off again after only three seasons, implying I did it wrong although I find that hard to believe. I was very particular. I also contacted Krayden and they have the glue (1 litre) at $34.50 but only seem to want to sell it to me in a case of 12! Since I race PHRF, I think I'll explore Frank's method of a more permanent solution to this so I never need to worry about this rubber again... ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 26 September 2016 at 6:33pm
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They shipped me a single can right to my door - I will see if I still have the contact name I used for you if you are interested . Seems to hold really well . Not cheap as they send you a quart where you need about an ounce . As to modifying the skin fitting , not sure that is legal under PHRF I would check first . I would think you become a non-standard boat having modified the hull fittings and open to a protest , or you will take a hit for it up front . Same as if you modified a shaft strut , keel or rudder attachment reducing drag. Not to mention the motor and drive moves around . Bukh did not put a flexible fitting there for no reason . Back to the installation. I sanded the area down to gel coat , inter-protected the entire well , the sail drive and the area the glue would attach to, then followed the glue instructions that came with the can. Bonded instantly. One season so far and it seems as good as when I put it on, but time will tell. Good luck and good sailing whatever you decide to do . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 26 September 2016 at 8:57pm
| Chris, I guess you did not read my previous post.. |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 26 September 2016 at 9:14pm
Nope I'd read it, but we noticed the small area of the rubber peeling off at the last day prior to launch and 4200 was all I had available. I figured it might hold for a year especially since it was just a small area. Clearly not the case... ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
bal149 wrote:Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 26 September 2016 at 9:21pm
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Frank when you modified Voila did you suffer a PHRF rating hit? ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 29 September 2016 at 8:21pm
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Run it past a PHRF measurer at your club . Only way to be sure . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 30 September 2016 at 12:51pm
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Here's our rating chairperson's answer. Note that different clubs may take a different position. "I don't think a 1/8 inch reduction of frontal surface will affect form drag significantly enough to warrant a penalty. From pics online of the Bukh shaft seal it is tapered to maintain laminar water flow over the surface. Removing that and going flush with the hull will slightly improve flow but it is around a vertical shaft that generates the majority of the form drag. The seal is negligible in the overall drag of the saildrive lower unit. No penalty." ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 30 September 2016 at 9:11pm
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Excellent news . did you get it in writing ? I agree that it will make little to no difference to speed and is why I would never take a hit for it . Technically it does not meet the definition of a "standard boat" that being ""Standard
Equipment" shall be what the manufacturer supplied. " according to PHRFlo sec 4.3. PHRF is traditionally pretty picky what you do below the water line , nice to see they officially waved this . PHRF is not a club thing after all , your certificate covers the area you sail in , across all clubs . Now to be clear this is something that if you do you are supposed to report it , the rule being " Changes that alter either the weight of the boat *or the flow of water over wetted surfaces such as
size, shape, contour, length, materials*, weight, location, center of gravity, etc." "Materials" is what it says and flow over whetted surfaces . Don't get me wrong , I don't think it makes any more difference to speed than carrying beer and ice , just don't want to run afoul of the rules. Maybe now the class can approve it ?
------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 18 October 2016 at 5:04pm
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After consideration, I'm going to try re-gluing the original rubber membrane. After haul out the membrane was still attached but I was able to peel it off easily by hand. In another post someone mentioned gluing it on and then using some small screws to provide further adhesion. Seems reasonable to me... Bostik 1685MC works well according to John but is hard to get. Only place in Canada that sells it is Tec-N-Tec in Montreal but they charge a ridiculous amount for both the product and shipping. Krayden in the USA will sell a quart for $34.50 USD so it looks like that is the best option..... unless anyone has found any other high quality waterproof contact cement that works? I've read that Dap Weldwood contact cement works good for general use. How about LePage contact cement available at any Home Depot? It's listed as "water resistant" which is not encouraging but LePage is a good company. They make Loctite after all... ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 18 October 2016 at 5:40pm
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Chris I've been using 3M Super Weatherstrip adhesive with no problems. Get is at any Auto Supply store. I know of other people are using it on their sail drive units. When was the last time you ripped off your weather stripping opening frozen car door in the middle of winter. ------------- Dick #122 |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 18 October 2016 at 7:24pm
| The original glue used from BUHK is some form of waterproof contact cement. I've installed dozens of these rubbers and they glue so well they are virtually impossible to remove without tearing the rubber apart into pieces. However when I install a rubber, I sand the rubber surface and hull surface well and coat both sides with glue and let it dry tack free before I push the rubber into place. Then I use a roller to roll out the rubber as hard as I can push on it. This is the typical method used when using contact cement. I see many owners suffering the same problem as you folks but it's clear your missing one of these steps. I've never ever been able to remove a rubber I installed without the help of a heat gun (which one must be very careful using) When I hear stories of how the corner didn't stay glued etc I'm certain the standard protocol for using contact cement hasn't been followed. Most rubbers installed at the factory lasted 15 years or more and they only got replace because the rubber cracked around the leg... it did not become unglued. |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 18 October 2016 at 9:06pm
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My method for the installation is described on page one of this thread. In reviewing this, I see a couple of things I may have done wrong: 1) I did not sand the rubber membrane prior to applying the glue (I did sand the hull but perhaps should have even used something a bit grittier at the end) 2) It was a cool day (don't remember exactly). A warmer day in the mid teens or above seems to be preferred for this type of glue 3) When applying, I did not wait for the glue to dry before pressing the pieces together. I think I waited until they are a bit tacky and that was it. But Bill mentions above (and I've seen this elsewhere) to wait until the glue is all but dry before pressing the pieces together. Counterintuitive, but I guess that's that. It's too cold here now to apply this stuff so it looks like I need to wait until spring. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 18 October 2016 at 9:43pm
| Actually it's not too cold to apply this. I've done it at Zero Celsius a few times without problems. |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 19 October 2016 at 11:21am
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This glue is the same kind one would use to glue a linoleum counter top on but more waterproof . A contact cement . It should be dry when you stick the two together . For the hull you want to be gluing to the gel coat or epoxy paint , not a bottom paint or old glue scuffed up . Not sure about the temp, but it will tell you on the can . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: WarBird
Date Posted: 28 December 2016 at 9:30am
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when I did WarBird #169 back in 02 or 03 it was part of a complete bottom job. VC Tar off, Interprotect 2000 on. Boat prep is part psychology. The other guy gets worried when he see all the time and effort YOU put into your boat. Fairing and filling and longboarding as the competitors walk by in the yard get them wondering. My saildrive gasket was sh*t but the previous owner had a new one and the bukh glue in the parts kit. I put a 45 degree bevel around the perimeter of the gasket perhaps more for the "wow" factor than actual flow in that area of the hull. I think I did that carefully on a belt sander feeding it carefullly by hand. When we had 5 L28s racing, WarBird was always at or near the front. |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 4:18pm
| So I went off to TecNTec to purchase a litre of glue. Bostik 1685. Pricey at 93.00$ But WAIT! Bostik increased the price as of May first- 225.00 plus tax!!!! WHOA. If the 3m Weatherstrip has held up on those using it I will try this . Can I use it on a previously glued membrane? |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 5:01pm
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I re-applied my membrane last Fall using 3M weatherstrip adhesive. I used the old membrane but was sure to remove all previous glue residue and I obviously sanded the hull as well. All I can say so far is that the glue held up over the winter. I checked it before I launched last weekend and that membrane is on good and tough. We'll see how it holds up underwater. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 9:14pm
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I've been using 3M Weather strip adhesive with good success. Clean the surfaces as good as you can. The cleaner the better. I've used scrapers, sandpaper and a final wipe down with Acetone. Dick ------------- Dick #122 |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 8:07am
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I found this stuff on Amazon.ca and tried it and it works quite well. The only difference between this stuff and the the real glue from Bukh is that it dries much faster. So much so that it dried tack free after 10 minutes the two parts would not stick together at all. I re-activated the glue on both surfaces with Lacquer thinner and it stuck great. After 24 hrs I stuck my hand in the well and grabbed the edge of the rubber and tried to pull it off and it wouldn't budge. I did some tests also and left it submerged and water had no effect on it. This stuff says it's waterproof, which the original stuff from Denmark did not state.
https://www.amazon.ca/LePage-Heavy-Contact-Cement-1504724/dp/B019GISV8Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1494936063&sr=1-1&keywords=LePage+Heavy+Duty+Contact+Cement Charles, yes if you sand the surface you intend to glue very well on the rubber it should re-glue fine. I use 80 grit on a random orbital sander to do this.
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Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 3:30pm
| Picked some up at Canadian Tire. Reviews to follow |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 9:55pm
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Yikes - went expensive ? Who quoted that price to you ? Anyway two years in and its still on solid with the 1685MC, . Good luck with the 3m stuff, I hear some people have success with it. I had thought of buying a can of the 1685 and doling it out to everyone who needs it but the stuff expires . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 21 May 2017 at 8:41pm
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I think the emerging theme here is that there are several high quality contact cement adhesives that seem to do the trick. LePage and 3M Weatherstrip being two of them. Surface prep and proper application appear to be the key. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 22 October 2017 at 5:34pm
| Well the season is over and the boat was hauled out today. I had not expected the 10$ Lepage contact cement would last, but the rubber skin was still tightly fixed to the hull. It had been applied in cool .Beats paying 250$ for the Bostik |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 22 October 2017 at 7:49pm
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Ditto here. I used 3M weatherstrip and the rubber membrane is still on solid. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: John Mills
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 5:48pm
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the Bostik 1685 still holding strong too , I paid about 90 bucks for a liter delivered to the door - enough to do a dozen boats but I hear it has gone way up in price . One issue with using untried stuff is the cost of a mid season lift out to fix it , but it sounds like we have a few good options now . ------------- Unplugged # 164 NOTL |
Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 02 November 2017 at 7:29pm
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I replaced the sail drive bladder on Mad Max. Here is a picture showing removing the old 3M weather stripping. You can see it is firmly attached to the hull. https://flic.kr/s/aHskqQ79Eq ------------- Dick #122 |