headsail track usage
Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
Category: Laser 28 General
Forum Name: Sailing
Forum Description: Everything on sailing the boat
URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=585
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 8:53pm
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Topic: headsail track usage
Posted By: Winner
Subject: headsail track usage
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 1:08pm
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OK this is probably a total newbie question but I don't see a specific thread on this so maybe useful for other newbies as they arrive. I'm wondering which cabin top tracks everyone uses for their headsails? I've no idea if my tracks are factory or if some have been installed afterwards. I have two on the deck aft of the shroud with one more to the inside than the other. I also have one on the cabin top just above the window and another on the downward sloping part of the cabin top forward of the mast. I've done some experimentation and found that when sailing close hauled under my genoa 155, switching to the innermost track on the deck gave us an immediate 0.5 knot speed increase. However I've done no experimentation at all with other sails, especially the lapper. I've attached a photo of my deck layout which hopefully uploads correctly. If anyone has any lapper or genoa tips, please post :-)  ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Replies:
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 1:45pm
| North sails are only cut for the upper track, whereas most other brands fit both tracks. Using the lower track keeps the slot open a little more while still being able to sheet the leech into the spreader. I haven't used the upper tracks in 18 yrs |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 10:37pm
| where is this lower track you speak of? you lost me. js |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 8:55pm
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Out sailing yesterday in 26 knot winds. I was short crewed and not being too experienced on the tiller decided to fly a storm jib instead of the lapper. Anyway we used the forward jib track (the one forward of the shrouds) and for some reason the jib fairlead block kept flying off the track. Clearly it was too much tension for the block to handle but it appears sturdy and the locking pin looks fine. I've never seen this happen before on any boat I've sailed on. Am I doing something wrong or do I need new jib fairlead blocks? ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:02pm
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screw pins or spring pins?
i would guess someone set them into a screw-head 'hole' and not a real fair-lead hole. they should not pop loose. js |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 10:50pm
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They're spring loaded pins.
------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 2:33am
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Chris,
The track that your sheets are on in the photo should be good for your no.1. Secondly, don't blow out your lapper if blowing 26 knots. Those conditions are for the working jib which we refer to as the #4. On your forward track make sure your pin is really set in the hole. Sometimes crew slide them toward the hole and think it is in the hole when the car stops. However the pin may have just slid into a screw recess which won't hold the car. This is a common mistake with crew who are unfamiliar with the boat. Frank |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 8:13am
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We are referencing the lower genoa track. His pic shows 2 lower deck tracks. The correct one is the silver inside track.
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fatjohnz wrote:Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 8:21am
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That usually indicates that the holes in your track have worn and are now elongated. Not locking the car pin in tightly. I have seen this before. However the car should not be able to fly off the track. When the boat was built we put on a pan head bolt at the aft end of all the tracks, this was put there to prevent the car from flying off the track under load should the pin fail.
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Posted By: Bill Brock
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 8:33am
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Hi Guys,
A couple more thoughts. I added a deck track (inside the shroud next to the cabin wall in front of the window) for the No. 2 and 3 which appears to be working very well. I found that the forward cabin top track was too far inboard. To get this sorted out I used the barberhaulers to pull the clew of the smaller headsails outboard about 2" to 3". I found I increased my speed to weather to about 6.1/6.2 knots, but of course I could not point as high. That improved my VMG to the point where I could keep up with the heavier PHRF boats (like a J-30) that usually left me in the dust in higher winds using the cabin top track. As I am sure you know, you must have close to 1,000 lbs on rail to keep the boat upright in the higher winds. I moved the new track aft a few inches to make sure I could get the same sheeting angle. (sorry I don't know how to post a picture to this write-up) Bill P.S. When you order a sail you should always give the manufacturer the the distance abeam from the center line of boat to the center line of the track. Don't assume anything. They are not mind readers. |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 8:52am
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Frank/Bill: yes indeed the inside track is better for the genoa. I experimented with that a few weeks ago and using the inside track gave us an instant 0.5 kt speed increase! Bill L: The pins don't look worn out to me but I'll inspect everything more closely. Some of my tracks have guards at one end to prevent the block from sliding off but the forward one does not. I assume this was for ease of block setting as I only have one set of fairleads for the whole boat. I'm considering buying more but they're a bit pricey. Having said that one of my crew told me that the block was actually flying off the front of the track, not the back which I find hard to believe but I can't verify this either way - I was too busy steering ;-) Frank: My sail inventory may need some tweaking. I have the following: 1) 155% Neil Pryde genoa 2) 109% North sails lapper (2 of them almost identical size) 3) 103% North sails jib (same sail shape as above but smaller because luff is 40 inches less) 4) storm jib So I'm not sure how this fits in terms of #1, #2, #3 and #4 as you described above Frank. Bill B: Sadly, my boat does not appear to be rigged for barber haulers. I'd appreciate any suggestions as to what I need to do for this. I know the theory behind their use but have never actually used one before. ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 9:05am
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I would assume that you are not using a schaffer car on your schaffer tracks. Sometimes this can be a problem as the pin does not match the track well. The silver inboard lower track does not look like a schaeffer track, which would explain why the car works on that one but not for the lapper track
Barber haulers used slide cars that mounted on the toe-rails and from there you could adjust the genoa sheet inboard / outboard positioning. However this only useable if you do point to point racing. Its not necessary for windward/leeward courses. Keep in mind the toe-rails are very fragile pieces of aluminum (.049 wall thickness) and cannot be loaded heavily. Many owners bent their toe-rails by overloading the barber haulers.
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Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 08 August 2012 at 9:39pm
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OK so I checked and my fairlead block is made by Viadana. http://www.sailormall.net/hardcote-anodised-aluminium-genoa-sheet-slide-max-rope-diam14-mm-code-viadana-2321-022197 So Bill I need to buy Schaffer fairlead block? Any specific one you recommend? ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 9:23am
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I can't tell if your block is the problem or not without comparing it to original equipment we used. Below are the tracks and cars we used for the L28. Despite their current rating, I've never seen one fail. Schaefer equipment isn't cheap and they have a reputation that they last forever. http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=993 - http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=993
This is the schaefer race track that was installed on all L28's (all original tracks were 1 foot long) http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=976 - http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=976
This is the schaefer genoa/lapper fairlead we supplied on all boats http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=1279 - http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=1279
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Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 4:37pm
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Thanks Bill I'll do some checking as to what's on my boat now.
------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 14 August 2012 at 4:46pm
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Great information here. My boat has the original
tracks on the cabin top. However at some point in it's life it did have a track
on the deck somewhere below the window. But for whatever reason, the owner took
off the track. The
short track in front of the mast works good for the working jib, and I think I
used the track aft of the mast for the lapper. Both cases I used the cabin
winches. I have
been flying my 155 Genoas (came with 2 new north sails rated 0-14 knots and 10-25 knots) off the toe rail,
so it has been working ok, and we don't fly the genoas above 14 knots anyway
with just the two of us. Which case we switch to the lapper, followed by the
working jib. The
short track in front of the mast works good for the working jib, and I think I
used the track aft of the mast for the lapper. I also
have barber haulers, I thought these were tweekers for the spinnaker. I haven’t
tried these out yet, but thanks to the posts I have some idea how to set up. I am
thinking that this winter I might install a track back on the deck and would
like suggestions on where to place it. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 14 August 2012 at 5:02pm
| The fwd track is for both working-Jib and the lapper. The aft upper track is for north genoas and the lower aft track is for all other makes of genoa. The pic above of Chris's boat #240 shows the correct location for the lower track (the silver track) |
Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 09 April 2015 at 11:23pm
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So I'm having new non skid put on the boat...thinking of removing the upper tracks completely. Is there any reason to keep them? Ron ------------- Hull 147 - Angel's Share |
Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 09 April 2015 at 11:27pm
By "keep them" I mean attached to the boat.  ------------- Hull 147 - Angel's Share |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 10 April 2015 at 12:45am
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It depends on what make genoa you use. North Genoas fit the upper track best. Evolution genoas can do both well. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 10 April 2015 at 2:11am
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Keep the upper track if you still have a full 155 Genoa. It gives you the possibility of building more shape into the sail in light air. I took mine off, but have since started using a jury-rigged in hauler. If I had the track I would use it.
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Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 10 April 2015 at 9:58am
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OK. I'll keep em' for future reference. Thanks ------------- Hull 147 - Angel's Share |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 16 April 2015 at 10:06pm
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Does anyone use adjustable genoa cars on the longer silver track? |
Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 16 April 2015 at 11:14pm
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Silver, There are many here more experienced than I, but hey, I'm up. If you are referring to the track that runs like a toe rail of the boat, I wouldn't subject it to much load. In my experience, running foresail blocks outboard on that track would not help your genoa sail shape any way. My boat came with some pin stop type cars (very small) that attach to the toe rail. You may notice multiple shallow holes where the pin would catch to hold. I believe the original intent of the small adjustable car that fits that the toe rail was for spin tweaker blocks. There have been reports of that track tearing away under loads from spin tweaker blocks. Or maybe your talking about some other track...carry on.... ------------- Hull 147 - Angel's Share |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 12:16am
| Ron, I'm talking about adjustable cars (not tracks). These are cars that would replace the pin stop cars and be adjustable from the cockpit. Garhauer, Harken and others make these genoa cars. |
Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 12:39am
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Yeah I get that....I think my concern with the track stability and sail shape is germane to the cars question. ------------- Hull 147 - Angel's Share |
Posted By: Mike V
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 6:30am
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I had the adjustable cars on my 35 and I loved them. I was considering installing them on the Laser. i still have to many other projects to finish first. If you pull the trigger invest in ball bearing cars. My friend installed the harken retro fit cars and they do not move well. ------------- Sparkplug Hull #182 NYC |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 7:36am
| I installed the Garhauer adjustable cars on my Hanse 37 last yr. Should have done it yrs ago. Work great. Considering purchase of L28. Downsizing. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 11:03am
| On other boats I have had adjustable cars (by adjustable I assume we are talking about adjustable "on-the-fly". They were useful on my Beneteau 42, and on my Quarter Tonner I used adjustable barber haulers to hold and adjust the genoa/jib car. However on a small boat such as a Laser, one is adding more strings to clutter the deck. We know where we want the car given the wind conditions, and we do have a way to in-haul, which is very simple when we want to use it on the genoa for shaping, but in general I feel there is more virtue in keeping the deck as clean as possible. Adjustable cars add more hardware and running rigging. They must have a purchase system, anchors in the deck, plus a cleat. These add more stuff to trip over, plus more lines to trap dirt on the deck. We have considered all kinds of things to improve the deck on the Laser and are not afraid of modifying to make the boat more efficient. However, the idea of adjustable cars has never come up. If one wants to make the change, the crew just moves the car position on the lazy side and its good for the next tack. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 11:09am
| One more thing: If one wishes to get the clew out, which would presumably be when head sail reaching, then it is better to place an "eye" in the deck near the outside and haul to that. The outside rail provided on the Laser will not take any load at all. You can use it more as a handy place to put rings for perhaps tying fenders, or securing lines in front to keep your sails on deck when fying the kite. We have removed those rails in that part of the boat anyway in order to make hiking more comfortable and it also keeps the deck from accumulating dirt which is otherwise trapped there. |
Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 11:26am
| Thanks. All points to consider. |
Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 11:26am
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How do you "in-haul"? ------------- Bill Ryan, Room4Crew, #155 |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 11:51am
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When I refurbished Voila 4 or 5 years ago I removed the upper track, which I now regret since we re-cut our genoa leach to trim in front of the spreader so that we can trim the genoa to about 5" inside the spreader tip. At the same time we shortened the LP measure slightly, raised the clew about 6 or 7" so that the sail still trimmed to the lower track car, and we raised the tack on the sail by 8", but still fly the sail in the same place by having added an 8" strop to the tack so that the tack just rides 8" above the deck. This allowed the sail to measure down to Code 4 under PHRF and allows us to point considerable higher. It also gives the #1 much greater wind range than a 153 or 155% sail because we can trim it in so much tighter. We find that given the breadth of the spreaders on the Laser, one doesn't really point with a full #1, but one is actually fetching and since the sail has to actually be relieved so that one doesn't punch a hole in it with the spreader, the draft moves aft, the sail becomes more full from top to bottom also, and the boat then heals more and slips to leeward. Voila now points with the best of them, and we are happy to lose a little sail area to get the ability to point, which otherwise we found a frustrating situation in the #1 conditions.
However, in very light air, we found that pulling the sail in and down to the lower track tends to flatten the sail too much for light air, and also closes the leach up top, so we wanted to be able to develop a bit more twist in the light air condition and needed to in haul the clew. I cringe to tell you how we are doing it, because it is pretty Mickey Mouse, but until we are certain as to what we want to do, we in haul to a teak handrail on the cabin top to which we have lashed a block. Most Lasers don't have a teak handrail, but someone put this on before we purchased the boat, and we sort of like it. In light air, there is not much strain on the in haul system, and we have the in haul block on an adjustable bridle tied between two of the uprights on the teak rail, so whatever strain there is is taken up by two screws. We just did this to experiment during one race, and then left it like that. I will see if I have a photo of it, and if so will try posting it. Clearly, if one still has the top genoa track, that becomes the obvious tool to use. |
Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 3:39pm
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Love your explanation! And definitely want to see the pictures. What was the PHRF result with the new headsail? ------------- Bill Ryan, Room4Crew, #155 |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 6:21pm
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Going from a Code 5 to a Code 4 was worth 3 PHRF points, which in our locality translates to about 5.24 seconds per PHRF point per hour, so say 16 seconds per hour. We think we go uphill faster, or have better VMG, even in drifting conditions, because once the boat starts to move we can point much higher. Plus, with 6 on board, we don't change down until we see 20 apparent. It continues to be the sail of our choice in the 16-18 apparent range, as where with the 155 you can't make it effective past 12.5 apparent when the boat slips sideways. The reason is not because of the reduced sail area, it is because we can sheet it in much tighter and make it more blade shape. In the 16-18 apparent range, we still have the main sail sheeted all the way in, and the boat really trucks.
I might, however, mention that Bill Layton tried this idea by cutting down an older genoa he had, and he found that while he could out point another friendly Laser, he said that the other Laser still had overall better VMG with more boat speed, but less point. For whatever reason, that is not our experience. With a full Code 5, we just get killed by everything on the water going upwind and cannot be competitive with that sail. So much so that we would carry the lapper in as little as 7-8 knots because we could point with it and if the water was not rough, it was faster than the #1. |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 17 April 2015 at 8:56pm
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Not sure what a code 4 or code 5 is but on your last sentence .....
I have loved the snot out of my #1 for so many years for speed but you just can't make it point. You can sail on the leech and convince yourself your pointing but for me,, it was a delusion. I have a lapper that is cut to be a powerhouse and it just seems to be the better all-around-option. There's no second guessing when the lapper is your biggest headsail; and the boat points like a mean teacher. js |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 12:25am
| I think you and I are on the same page. I have often dreamed of a power lapper to act as the #1, and perhaps switching to a Code 6 main (one size up from class) to remain even on the PHRF numbers. One of the Laser owners here does have a class lapper made by Evolution, and it is definitely cut more fully that mine. Speaking with Bill, he designed that sail to maximize what could fit in the slot. If you use something like that, you will know that in light air the top batten frequently gets stuck against the mast and will not come through. In light air we have to seriously backwind that sail to get it to tack. However, down at the clew, I note that we could take the clew back another 22 inches and still fall into the Code 3 category in PHRF. If I thought there was a way to said light air with a maximized lapper that clewed inside the shrouds, I would use it. Note the class lapper clews quite forward on the forward track. I always wonder if it could come back, though realistically the real power in the sail is not at the deck level, but in the upper 2/3. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 8:04am
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The class Lapper was designed by Bruce Farr and as Frank says it's not the LP that makes it work but rather the max girths. This sail is designed so that it has the largest girths possible and will sheet 8.5" inside the spreader. FYI tacking it isn't an issue when the foredecker holds down the clew and walks it fwd a few feet. This sail can be raced at 8.5 knots and up. The class genoa is 0-12 true. However at 12 knots the Lapper has a slight edge pointing. Under 11 knots we have no issues pointing with other fast PHRF boats while using our Lower tracks. Using a Genoa on the Lower track that was not designed for it will be flat and slow and we've seen lots of Genoas by other makers that fall into this category. Our Genoas are designed to fit both the upper original tracks and the Lower tracks. To simplify this, speed is point. If your sail is too flat or if it's not designed to sheet on the Lower track it, then it won't work. And if it has the wrong shape it won't work on the upper track either. |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 8:15am
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When I first got my boat it came with an 'oversize' main; it had quite a roach on top. But try and try and try, I was never satisfied with the shape and the way it trimmed.
To get the top battens parallel to the boom, you had to really crank the mainsheet which would overtrim the lower portions of the sail and bend the mast (which is not what I wanted). Not to mention hanging up on the backstay during tacks and putting sail area up high which made it harder to keep the boat flat. My newest main, (which we now call patches after 5 seasons), does not have a roach and its easy to get a nice consistent draft from top to bottom. So even though its not oversize its really efficient and pulls the boat like a champ. js js |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 10:59am
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I wish we had the ability to compare sails, boats, etc, that we have here on the West Coast, with those that sail so competitively on the East Coast. Speaking to Bill, and other owners of top performing Lasers such as Colibri, they both enjoy their Evolution Genoa's (Colibri's may still have the Quantum label, but were from the same loft), and both seem to be able to point with other competitive boats. Though I think other boats that sail in the East also use other sail makers sails and are competitive, presumably with sails similar in design or copied from Evolution, or Bill's designs. That said, it is commonly heard from other Laser owners who are not in those One-Design fleets in Toronto and Montreal that they can't point with anybody in PHRF fleets when using their #1's, ourselves included. So either we don't know how to sail our boats, or all of us are working with inferior cut genoa's. Our genoa was originally a 153, cut by a Quantum loft, clearly not using Bill's design (though when I ordered it I thought all Quantum lofts had access to each other's design information) and we just got killed in #1 conditions even against "true dogs" in the fleet. Nothing would make the boat point until we cut that sail down and got the leach forward of the spreaders so we could get it in. I wish, I wish, I wish we had a modern Evolution sail of Bill's design here to try, but am loath to spend the money on a new hi-tech material sail that I fear won't point in our fleet. For reference a sampling of our Div 3 PHRF fleet includes Santana 30-30's, Spencer 36, C&C35 M-I, Frers 30, custom Tuloos 27, Custom Yamaha 36 with Jespersen Keel and hi-rig (almost unbeatable with PHRF of 115), J-30, two J-29's, Hotfoot 31. There are others, but it really doesn't matter.......they all killed us in #1 conditions unless it was just in ghosting conditions 0-4, when the Laser just moved a little easier. But in anything else, we just could not compete until we got into Lapper conditions, so much so that we only used our Genoa in super light conditions.
And just because it is early Saturday morning and I'm up early, I'll keep this thing going. The Laser was not originally designed to carry a Genoa, but meant to sail with the Lapper as its largest foresail. That being the case, the rig is built very light and is stayed by a seriously wide set of spreaders, necessitating the wide-set of the shrouds at the deck level. If the boat had been designed to carry a Genoa, it would have probably been double spreaders that were much narrower with the shrouds terminating directly against the corner of the cabin top and deck. The chainplates on the Laser are 11 degrees off center, where modern racing boat are now 7 and even in the day of the Laser they were somewhere around 9. But with the Laser the shrouds are in the way of the foot even when trimmed to the genoa block at 11. That at least creates a mental picture as to why we think it can't point. Then one speaks with Bill or Simone who are always at the top of the fleet, and they make their boats sail well against everything. So, Voila is currently a bit stalled in its sail development program, and the time is coming to make some decisions. Our genoa, since we cut it down, sees a lot of action and and was built in 2010 with almost no usage in the first two years when it was a 153. Now it is used most of the time and is breaking down. John, your own experience with an over-sized Main is very interesting as well, because any modern racing yacht today would be rigged with a larger main than ours. On the other hand, they would also have better balast/displacement ratio's. The Laser's is awful. The designed balast ratio was based on a boat that was supposed to weigh 3950 lbs, but in racing configuration, our Lasers weigh over 4600 lbs. Our keels were extremely small in area to start with, so the boat will go sideways if not kept upright, which also affects what can be done with the sail plan. So many variables! All said, Voila remains a competitive machine as currently sailed, but is not simple to get the best performance from her. It is not a boat that sail's herself to the top of the fleet. We all could benefit from some sailing experience with the likes of Bill and those Laser sailers with crews and sails that really know how to make them go. Good weekend to all.......we are off to go sailing! |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 19 April 2015 at 8:31am
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I have an Evolution kevlar genoa on Eclipse that is about 5 years old. We use the track located at the junction of the deck and the base of the cabintop (the silver track with the jib car in the first picture of this discussion thread). I've actually never tried using the original cabintop track for this sail as I've always felt it'll put the sail at an odd sheeting angle. Regarding performance, I would say that this Evolution genoa is excellent in light winds. We are hard to beat. I do find however that in any sustained winds over 10 knots, we are overpowered and need to contemplate dropping to the lapper, which on my boat is a very old, non-maxi lapper more suited to 16+ knot winds and so when the winds are about 12-14, we suffer badly. I've had mixed experiences with upwind pointing ability. I do find it frustrating that because the sail hangs on the spreader, we can't sheet in as far as we'd like and I'm contemplating recutting the sail as per Frank to reduce the leech size to allow it to be trimmed inside the spreader. According to my instruments, we can typically sail the genoa up to about 32 degrees off the wind, apparent. That said, I recall one race last year where on an upwind leg we needed to tack away because we were being outpointed by a J35 and she eventually forced us away. In another race, however, I was able to outpoint an Express 27 and forced her to tack away from me. It sounds like for other sailors, the genoa is always a sacrifice of pointing ability. My experience has been more mixed, with some days the genoa allowing us to point with the rest of the fleet and other days not so much. Perhaps the issue lies with me as the helmsman and not the sail! ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |