water in the oil?
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URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=561
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Topic: water in the oil?
Posted By: Seawolf
Subject: water in the oil?
Date Posted: 04 May 2012 at 10:01pm
|
Everything went back together fine, the cooling system; thermostat and housing cleaned, impellor replaced and hoses cleared out of junk.
Replaced fuel filters and primed the fuel and cooling system. I set up a garden hose
and bucket in the cockpit for the water intake and the engine fired immediately.
(Temperatures was 40 degrees F) I ran the motor for about 10 minutes at idle during that
time I turned it off once to be sure the stop solenoid worked. Placed my hand
on the engine, never got hot just a nice hand warmer. Saw where I was getting
fuel leaks and water leaks, and tightened the connections a little. After all that I shut down the motor and check the oil, the
oil level never changed (about ¾ full between the marks) but it came out grayish!
I also pulled the oil filer and saw the same grayish oil. That screams water in
the oil, but before I panic I should check all possibilities; I had the oil filter pulled and soaking in
kerosene for a couple of days and then sat on the work bench for about a month, I
did the same for the vacuum value on the oil cap and both the oil intake and the
oil filter port was open for a month,
could enough condensation collected be a factor? Before I pulled the oil filter
I did siphon about a quart of oil, the dipstick was still about ¾ full between
the marks, so I didn’t bother topping it off. The temperature was cold, could
that be a factor? In putting all the water hoses back together, could I have done
something? Other than finding the grayish oil, everything ran fine, however being on the trailer I couldn’t put a load on it and I didn’t rev it up. There was no irregualr smoke coming from the transom. When I asked the previous owner about the oil change last fall he stated there was no indication of water in the oil, hate to call him a lair..... Not sure what to do now, I probably should drain the oil, maybe even pull
the oil sump off.Suggestions?
|
Replies:
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 04 May 2012 at 10:55pm
| headgasket is the culprit |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 05 May 2012 at 10:52am
|
I thinking the same, I am looking at the Buhk manual and it looks simple enough to pull the head (part 59 on page 32) and replace the gasket (part 4 on page 32). I am thinking I should also pull the oil sump (part 1 on page 34) to ensure I get all the contaiminated oil out. Let me know if I am on the right track and if there is anything else I should be doing while in the process. Thanks
|
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 05 May 2012 at 12:55pm
|
If it is the head gasket, and it has been leaking for a while, pulling the head may not be easy, particularly with the engine in the boat. Corrosion sticks things together. In trying to separate the head from the cylinder block, you will be tempted to use a wedge or large screw-driver with a hammer to break the head free. "DON'T!"
This will cause damage to both the milled surfaces of the head and the block. Below is a method that may be a little messy, but is a better way: 1. Remove the 4 nuts and washers that hold the head and cylinder block to the crank case. 2. Remove the injector nozzle from the head. 3. Using the flywheel, rotate until the piston is about 1" off TDC (top dead center). A screw-driver down the hole of the injector will tell you that you are off TDC. 4. Pour gear oil into the head through the hole left by the injector until it is full. Gear oil usually comes in a container with a small nozzle on it so that a funnel is not necessary. I suggest gear oil because if your piston rings have been compromised by a leak, the gear oil will not leak past a bad ring as easily as 15/40 engine oil. 5. Replace the injector nozzle. 6. Using the starter, turn the engine over once. When the piston moves up toward TDC it will lift the head off with no effort nor excitement, perhaps the cylinder block will come with it, but it doesn't matter. A couple of old towels laid in well under the engine will contain most of the oil. The main cause for a head gasket to fail is over heating. It only takes one event. If this has happened, it may have caused corrosion to the rings as well which cause them to cease within the piston grooves and compromise compression. You will be lucky if this did not happen, but removing the cylinder block at this time to inspect the rings would be a good idea. One other thing. If you know you had water in the oil resultant from a leaky water pump, I suggest a couple of oil changes before you get into the head removal, which unless you are a contortionist is a bitch. Question: How did you drain the oil? Did you use a vacuum pump through the dipstick, or did you drain from the drain plug in front of the engine. I ask this, because the drain plug is not at the very bottom of the sump and if there was previously water in the oil, you will not have removed all the liquid from the crankcase by draining at the plug. By using the vacuum method, the extension of the dipstick tube reaches further into the bottom of the crankcase, but is still not at the bottom. Either one will leave a little liquid in the case and it doesn't take much water to froth-up the oil. My suggestion is that you drain the oil at least one more time, but be sure that the engine is well warmed up so that any water is mixed the oil. Directly after engine shut-down, remove the oil by the vacuum method via the dipstick tube. The is the best method to get rid of water in oil, which otherwise will separate. Since the oil is lighter than the water, the water will always stay on the bottom of the case, out of the reach of normal draining methods. So.....only go after the head if you still have water after a couple of oil changes. Good luck! :) |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 05 May 2012 at 2:21pm
| Nice post Frank! |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 05 May 2012 at 3:48pm
|
THanks for the post. I have also been talking to Keith and here is what he had to say; Not unusual for water pump seals to
leak eventually. As water pump is direct drive and
mounted above drive unit it gives easy access for water to get into
crankcase. Suggest you look very closely at pump for any signs of water. Pump has
drain holes around narrow part of the pump body where mounting yoke is. Check that
these are clear and or clean with a toothpick etc. Run engine and watch for any drops
of water at these holes. If water, replace pump seals (2) It takes very little water to grey
the oil. It takes 2 to 4 oil changes and 5
minute runs to get all contaminated oil out. If pump not leaking next possible
problem is breach of head gasket or cracked cylinder head. Fingers crossed!!!! |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 05 May 2012 at 10:27pm
| Okay. If you are not a contortionist, then you will have to become one. At 64 years of age, and damaged knees, back, shoulders, etc, I really "love" it down there. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 10:54am
|
Just an update; I pulled the water pump housing and checked for water, it was dry as a bone below the housing. So today I will remove the cylinder head. Another note, yesterday afternoon, after putting the pump housing back together, I fired up the engine to warm it up for oil draining, it ran for a minute (water was coming out of the exhaust) and then it sputtered the died. I check and bled the fuel lines, they were fine, tried starting it, nothing, it was cold out so I put a little oil in the port for cold starting, Nothing. I was running out of time, so I put a charger on the battery and closed things up. I will see if I can start it out today, could enough water get into the oil to effect compression? If I don’t get it started, then I will proceed to drain what oil I can and remove the cylinder head. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 11:07am
| The water gets into the engine via the failed head gasket. Then being the cylinder it gets past the rings and mixes with oil, resulting in grey oil. Be careful now because water can cause a hydraulic lock and split your piston or even blow the rings off the piston. Running it at this stage is dangerous. Drain the oil cold from the drain plug and start your head removal to avoid further damages |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 11:12am
| Thanks for the timely warning. Proceeding directly to head removal. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 12:16pm
|
Your symptoms have progressed to indicate that the rings are now frozen within their grooves and the compression is very little or nil, hence it won't start. If you have been running in only fresh water, it may be possible to take the rings out and clean them up and re install. If doing so, pay very, very close attention to ring orientation. First where the split of each ring aligns on the aluminum piston. Scribe the piston where the ring splits are. Next, make sure the rings go in in the same order top, middle, bottom. One is an oil distribution ring, the others are pure compression. Also, on some of their rings sets, one of those compression pistons has a small step in its edge. Make sure that piston does not get flipped upside down. Doing the forgoing is necessary to assure you have all the compression available from the rings and cylinder bore that you had before the problem arose. If you engine was running fine, and this was not a salt water situation, I think you can save what you have.
On the other hand, if you engine was starting to use oil, or some other symptom of worn rings/bore, then you must take the cylinder block out, hone the bore, and order a new ring set from Keith. You will be getting a new head gasket from him anyway, and a new cylinder gasket that goes where the cylinder block attaches to the crank case. You can buy a simple honing tool from your local auto supply store (Lordco, etc) and mount it in a drill motor with a minimum 3/8" chuck and slow speed. These honing stones are spring loaded to maintain contact with the bore. Progress the drill motor up and down within the bore very quickly to try to attain a cross-hatched pattern within the bore using lots of oil. Nice if you can support the cylinder within a large bucket or something to contain the oil that flies off the honing tool. You are definitely in it now, but the result will be rewarding and you will know a lot more about your engine when done. We all congratulate your effort in this, particularly doing it in the boat. Are you a Yogi? One more thing, and that is not to lose track of which valve lifter (push rod) goes where. One is for the exhaust the other for the intake. I suggest you wrap a piece of masking tape around one (say the exhaust side)and note each lifter's orientation in their housing so that they re assemble the same and provide the same lift to the valves they operate. I assume you are working with a copy of the Bukh Workshop Manual which is downloadable from the net. It is a must for what you are getting into. 
|
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 12:20pm
| By-the-way, was your boat once named Sorcery? If so, it was originally owned by Jim Paxton whom I was with yesterday and who still occasionally sales with me. He sold his boat to someone in the Okanagan, and thinks he heard that it ended up in Montana. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 2:47pm
|
The boat has been sea wolf since day one. Started it's career in Colorado, did a road trip to new jersey and went to the bahamas by way of ICW, after that trip the engine was rebuilt and returned to colorado at lake dillon for the last 12 years. Now as 3rd owner it will hopefully sail on Flathead Lake this year. I am working with the Buhk manual (which must be a copy of a copy which was copied) and advice of Keith plus your many great suggestions. I have the side panals removed so the engine is pretty accessable. I have the oil drained and all the extra parts removed but the 4 nuts are seized, heading to the store for some liquid wrench.
|
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 4:35pm
| Well I have 3 of nuts off, including the bolt which came out with the lower starboard. But I see that it's double threaded and once I free up the nut it will thread back. The problem with the last nut is the upper port, and the injector(?), thing that the fuel line connects to, is in the way. THe manual does not help me on how to remove this. Help please. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 4:43pm
| Give me your phone number. Having lunch at the moment but will be back on boat by 2:00 pm pst to visualize the problem then call you |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 5:53pm
| you have to remove the complete injector to remove that nut, see the 2 nuts holding the injector in place? |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 6:08pm
| I did that but the injector didn't want to come out, not wanting to force something that I didn't understand, I abandon that idea. Now, with your sugestion I will try it with more conviction. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 6:34pm
| ok, it didn't take much conviction. the injector came off easy and now i will fill it up with gear oil and frank's method. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 May 2012 at 11:25pm
|
well
the cylinder is off, frank's idea of using gear oil helped pop things loose but
it took a little muscle to slide the cylinder off the remaining two bolts, one
of the bolts (on air intake side) was stubborn and didn't want to let the head
slide off. Lots of liquid wrench to lube things up and leverage. Now it
is in my shop waiting to be dissembled. I am looking at this cylinder head and
the gasket and searching for any telltale signs that the gasket was the culprit,
I don't see anything obvious. The only signs I have been able to grasp is on
the engine block the lower starboard (exhaust side) there was a bunch of gasket
material accumulated in one of the water ports (?) and when I turned the
starter over the gear oil exited out the same area . This is also the same side
where I saw water dripping from the piston spring. So if I use these clues I
could say that the gasket was comprised by the exhaust elbow. Now
Keith at Crinmar has given me best case and worst case scenarios. We have
already moved beyond best case, and worst case would be a cracked head. I am diligently
looking around the value springs (where Keith says I would find such crack) and
I don’t really see anything. There are spots where the paint has peeled off and
with some imagination I could think I see a crack between the exhaust and intake
ports. But can I be sure so I can rule this out? Another
clue I am looking at is; the exhaust seems to have a good buildup of carbon,
meaning if a take a screw driver I can flake off bits of carbon. Excessive or
normal? Your
thoughts? And thanks for all your comments to date, it helps keep the anxiety
down. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 1:42am
|
How are the milled faces of the block and the head in the area surrounding the cooling ports. I have seen the corrosion from the cooling ports spread out under the gasket and possibly breach through. You will notice that the contact area for the gasket to achieve its seal is not great in some areas. If the pitting gets in underneath the gasket, it will have the same effect as the gasket failing. If you send me your email address, I will show you some detail photos of what I am talking about. This may require some milling of the surfaces to assure that the gasket "can" do its job. You have not mentioned this, however, so perhaps your surfaces are sound.
You mentioned gasket material in one of the cooling ports in the cylinder on the exhaust (port) side. What kind of gasket material is that. I think the gasket at the bottom of the cylinder is a very thin mylar materials, or something similar. Was it that? The carbon build-up could be from worn seating of the exhaust valve. Is that where you saw it? How does the area of the head look where the cooling water enters the head. There is a fitting there with a hose nipple on it that attaches. When removed, is there a lot of rust in there? Is there still plenty of material in that area for the gasket of that fitting to seal? Were any of the cooling ports blocked it either the cylinder or head? I don't know how to check for a crack. I think the professionals do it by a controlled heating process and black dye. Perhaps Keith can explain. You could try using black fabric dye in a stock pot over the stove and bringing it up to a boil. On removing and cooling, wiping the faces clean may reveal a crack if there is one particularly with the use of a magnifying glass. Unless the head was really overheated, I doubt it is cracked. Mine got so hot that the paint on the outside on the exhaust side of the head and cylinder turned black, but no crack. Email address? |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 3:06am
|
The surface looks fine, some light cleaning
with a nylon brush to clean the remnants of the head gasket, but I see no
pitting or discoloration. The gasket materiel I mention was the head
gasket. There was significant amount flakes of it in the lower port side of the
block. Not sure what to call it (water jacket?) but these are the ports that
circle the big single cylinder which water would flow around to keep the big
piston cool. Other than using a small
tool, is there a better way of clearing these out, air compressor? The carbon I am referring to is where the exhaust
elbow connects to the cylinder head. The area where the thermostat housing sits
looks ok, I put a new seal on the bottom of the housing, but I was still
getting some leakage around the base of the housing. Unbolted it, rebolted it
and I think it resolve the problem. Looking down into the cylinder head where
the housing sits there is rust, but nothing that is flaking off. Last month, I
pulled the housing and gave it and the thermostat a vinegar bath, checked the
thermostat function and checked all the hoses including the hose and nipple off
the lowest point of the cylinder head. All were clear and maybe a teaspoon of
rusty sediment accumulated in the nipple of the bottom hose, but not enough to
restrict flow. Last month I asked about the exhaust elbow,
the old one which I replaced had several cracks in it. I was worried it may
have been due to overheating, and this may tie in with the other observations I
made; loose head gasket material in the cooling ports on the cylinder block, gear
oil blowing out that same area and the exhaust value leaking water around it’s
spring. So maybe this is the area where the gasket failed. The idea of the cracked cylinder head is a
concern because it’s a 2100.00 part. Makes one lose a little sleep over it….. Email address is mailto:mark@powwowcountry.com - mark@powwowcountry.com Thanks |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 3:34am
|
From everything you have said it just sounds like a blown head gasket or a leak in that area. This would usually be caused by an over heating event. Rust blockage at the cooling water outlet, or perhaps on the intake side. Check intake filter. Or, perhaps, the head bolts had insufficient torque on them. You will find that the manual suggests re torquing the bolts after the first 10 hours of service. Perhaps the last guy did not do that. On heating and use, the head gasket compresses a little and SOP is to re tighten.
When you re assemble, use aviation gasket sealant on every gasketed surface, but not on the head gasket. I spread anti-cease grease on the length of the head studs when I reassembled to try to prevent them binding to the cylinder in the future, though I hope not to have to disassemble again in my lifetime. Have you checked the rings on the piston to see that they compress and de compress smoothly within their grooves? Also, check to see if there is any small ridge at the top and bottom of the cylinder where the rings stop and change direction in each stroke to determine cylinder. I'm guessing that they look pretty smooth. You may as well try my idea with the dye, but I don't think the head is cracked. I was a little confused when you said that the leak was not evident at the head gasket. If there were bits of the head gasket in the cooling ports then surely it had failed. I will send you some pictures, but it sounds now like you are on top of it. You can clean out the ports using a wire brush. I forget their size. Maybe the brush used to go down the bore of a 20 guage shotgun would be perfect. If not, perhaps a 410. Get the bits from Keith on their way and re assemble. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 07 May 2012 at 7:51am
| This may sound blunt but did you use a metal straight edge like a ruler and run it over the cleaned surface of the head and the cleaned surface of the cylinder. We call these areas the deck. They must be flat with no concavities. To prepare those surfaces for a straight edge one must sand those surfaces with emery paper to get all the buildup and carbon off first. Warpage is very hard to see, so have a bright light on the other side of the ruler helps. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 09 May 2012 at 10:27pm
|
Progress report, I have order a new cylinder
head and the gaskets that are required. I removed the frozen bolts and removed
the block. the piston rings were loose and not frozen in the groves of the
piston. The piston looks to have a little rust between the rings. I suppose I need
to clean this as well, Emery cloth and oil? The cylinder looks fine, but I have
yet to do measurements per the book, I haven’t notice any lips inside the
cylinder. Also the book says to change rings if the gap is greater than 2mm. Ok
so gap between what and what?
Another question, I was warned and the book
also states to be sure not to mix up the push rods, I haven’t but they are both
of the same length and have the same part number on it. If you check the parts
lost the book does not differentiate between the rods. So I just double checking.
Another observation, I cleaned out the water
ports on the cylinder by flushing it out with water and lots of junk came out,
enough to fill up your hand.
Thanks for your input.
|
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 10 May 2012 at 2:01am
|
It a little shocking to see that much rust from fresh water operation. Now you can easily see how these flakes can plug the 1/4" hole on the nipple located on the exhaust elbow when the cooling water returns to the exhaust. That is why I suggest a filter just before the exhaust elbow. It is so easy to install. One hack saw cut, filter and two hose clamps...done!
If the rings are moving, I would not pull them out. Just spray it all with some WD-40 all around those rings for now so that the rust does not build while exposed. That rust will go away when the engine starts running again. It is only there because of the vapor that was getting in there owing to the cracked head. The 2mm gap they refer too is where the ends of the ring come together.......almost come together. When the rings are compressed back into the cylinder, that gap is reduced to almost nothing and when replacing with new rings, if you don't have that 2mm gap, the ring ends will come together before the ring's circumference is reduced sufficiently to fit into the cylinder bore. In that case, those ends are carefully filed a bit to get the 2mm. If the old rings are to be re used you don't have to worry about this. Just try to keep the rings in the same position as when you pulled the cylinder off and try not to rotate them when you put the cylinder back on. The reason is that the rings and cylinder walls have worn to a perfect fit with each other through engine use. They are perfectly matched in their existing position. They cannot re mate properly with each other from further use unless the walls are honed and you are not planning on that which would also require new rings, etc. Keep it simple and keep the rings just as they were in their grooves. My advice to keep the push rods in the same position as they came out may be overkill, but when we did not know that you were going to install a new head, it would have assured no change to the valve clearance in the lifted position, which is critical. Since you are going with a new head, you are going to have to go through that exercise anyway. You will need a feeler gauge. Get a cheap one because as I remember you may have to bend the last 1/2" of the correct tabs on the gauge to clear the face where the valve cover fits in order to make the measurement. You will see what I mean when you get there. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 10 May 2012 at 2:12am
| I forget how long you have owned this boat. However as there is a bit of down time on the boat at the moment, I want to suggest that you take off the propeller and do a continuity check between the inside of the splined shaft bore and the outside of the main hub of the prop. This will be done with the ohm setting on a simple volt meter. Many of the old propellers have lost their electronic isolation between these these and while it is not as critical in fresh water as in salt water, I have seen advanced electrolysis damage to one lower unit that was used exclusively in fresh water. It is possible that the damage I saw occurred at some ancient time in that boat's history when it may have been in salt water, but it still leads me to consider that this may have happened in lake water because I can see that it had only been in fresh water for at least 10 years. Also, is there any deterioration at all that can be seen on the sail drive casing? This is just a safety check for the moment. |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 10:29pm
|
Frank/Bill: I'm doing some work on my engine at the present time (nothing as extensive as this fortunately but I did have to replace my muffler) and have two questions: 1) What is the best process to ensure I don't have any gunk or metal flakes etc in my water cooling lines? I've just replaced the cooling water drain hose and the cooling water outlet hose so those are fine. Are there any other critical areas I should check? 2) Can you elaborate on the "filter before the exhaust elbow" comment you made above? I'm assuming you're talking about the point where the drain hose attaches the the 90 degree bend and goes into the exhaust pipe? Where can I find such a filter? Sorry to seemingly hijack this thread but my question seems related so I though it'd be OK to put here. Thanks ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 10:49pm
| If you have the head and cylinder off, change the rings-the labour is essentially done, the cost is significant but worth the peace of mind |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 11:22pm
|
The little in-line strainer is from Shurflo. Check out westmarine.com and do a search for Shurflo. Then the West Marine model part # WM7877921, manufacturer's number MFG Part # 255-323. Cost is $11.99.
You are correct that I suggest putting this little thing in-line just before the cooling water enters that little barbed fitting on the exhaust elbow. When you remove the 1/2" hose that carries the water, you will see how small the hole is on that little fitting. 1/4" at best. It just takes a couple of flakes of rust and your cooling water will be stopped, head gasket will be toast, and all the other stuff that follows. It is cheap insurance. When you open the little box for this thing it will say to locate it only on the intake side, and then there is a little arrow indicating the direction of the flow. For sure make sure the arrow is pointed in the direction of the flow, but ignore their advice not using it on the discharge side. It is just a simple strainer and debris trap. It worked very well for me before I converted to a heat-exchanger and started running anti-freeze. I cleaned it out several times and it was definitely doing its job. With two hose clamps in hand and a hack saw, installation is 5-minutes. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 11:33pm
|
Regarding inspection for rust flakes, the junction where the 1/2" hose re-enters the exhaust at the exhaust elbow may reveal some flakes there. Take that hose off and have a look. Blow through it and see what comes out. Stretch it out straight and have a look down it.
Of course this is all after the cooling. In a recent post Bill Layton suggested a plate on the head where rust flakes accumulate if they are present. I just researched a bit, but failed to find that post. Suggest you look back a little to find it. Meanwhile, these discussions don't go too far before bill jumps in to assist. Bill????????? |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 11:40pm
| Found Bill's comment. Currently you are asking about a cooling water subject, but we are in a "water-in-the-oil" subject. Research the subject, "Engine Cooling Water Pump" and you will find Bill's advice posted 11 April. |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 11:57pm
|
Yes indeed I had that apart today at the barbed fitting into the exhaust elbow. The hose was looking a bit worn so I replaced it. No rust was apparent and yup, that's a very small opening! Weak link in the cooling chain for sure. No West Marine where I live here in TBay but I'll ask around town or order online for that part. Probably the best $12 you could ever spend for that type of insurance! I found Bill's other post, thanks. Last question: that Shurflo part has 1/2" barb in but 1/2" NPS female out. I would think I'd need a 1/2" barb out if it's inline. Do I need to buy a 1/2" NPS male to 1/2" barb adaptor as well? ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 19 May 2012 at 1:44am
| I have mine in front of me. It is not a Shurflo. Go to stevestonmarine.com and I went to the Canadian site. Under their plumbing items they show the strainer as a model# AA18523 with 1/2" barbs on both sides. Price $17.25. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 2:42pm
|
Finally getting around to replacing the
Cylinder back onto the Motor. However now I have a drain plug (brass) that is
stripped. Not the brass, but the drain hole where the brass plug goes into. So
my 3 thoughts are; 1. use west system 105/205 and epoxy the
thing in there, since I will never see it removed again in my life time. And
you still can drain the water (the plug has 2 more nuts on it which once
removed the water drains.) 2. epoxy the hole and retap it, be sure to
blow out the loose epoxy. 3. retap the hole one size up and use a
regular brass bolt. Is
there a fourth option? Also while I am familiar with west system 105 and 205, and
use it for other projects, I never have applied to this type of fix. Will this
work? |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 2:50pm
| All options seem viable. The better epoxy to use for this would be J-Weld and thicken with high density filler if necessary. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 3:08pm
| I would suggest that you re-tap one size up but use a pipe thread tap, this is a tapered tap and then get a pipe thread plug that matches at any plumbing outlet and you'll be fine. The reason it's stripped is because the threads were rusty, epoxy is unlikely to form a good bond on rust. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 3:14pm
|
Used JB Weld before, I have more confidence
with that. Going with this option. Just
an update, I received the head back from the shop on friday, however I am
waiting on the diesel shop for the fuel injector. Being it was off I took it in
to have it tested and serviced, the nozzle turned out to be bad, so Keith was
happy to sell me a new one. I will get this on Tuesday and take it to the shop.
I was hoping to have everything else back together today, but re-reading the
manual I see that I need to measure the amount that the injector protrudes into
the head. So today I will work on reinstalling the cylinder and piston. Just as
well I have only so much "mechanical patience." Other thoughts on
the cylinder, I have coated the threads with anti-sieze but was considering
coating the non threaded portion of the bolt with grease or maybe the anti seize,
the dry rust made it difficult to remove the bolts from the cylinder. The book talks
about shiming the cylinder so that there a set gap between the piston and the
head. Since no one has mentioned this, I am assuming every one else ignored
this part as well? |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 3:32pm
| If neither the cylinder head, nor the head surface was milled down, then shimming should not be necessary. If it was just milled a little to clean it up, also no problem. This will be determined by how much the piston protrudes above the cylinder when at top dead center before putting the head back on. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 3:34pm
| If you haven't machined the deck on your cylinder or changed the piston then all you need to do is put back the same gaskets or if new the same thickness. Because nothing will have changed |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 3:42pm
Sorry Frank didn't see your post when I posted last 
|
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 4:00pm
| thanks, for the clarification. PS I ran a tap through the hole and "revived" the threads. So the the drain plug has some more bite in the hole, however I am going to dab a little jb weld to make it a sure thing. I really don't want to re do it upside down on a pitching boat. |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 7:43pm
| To retap a hole where the threads are iffy, go to an auto parts store and buy a Heli Coil kit in the right size. Drill, insert and this is a permanent repair. Epoxy is not a sure thing in a motor that vibrates and has temperature changes. That said, we often used epoxy to fill spaces in our racing (motorcycle) engines- but as a structural repair, welding or Heli Coil. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 10:38pm
|
Thanks for the tips, all are very useful. Now the cylinder is back on and waiting for the fuel injector and head. I noticed with all six mounting bolts on the cylinder, it is not flush up against the engine, there is a 1/4 inch gap all around the cylinder. Will this tighen up when I put the head on and tighten down to specs? I am also thinking I need to back out the 4 bolts a little (which the head will mount on) so they can suck in the gap when tighened.
|
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 11:06pm
| I don't like that. There is no reason for this to be the case. Inspect to be sure that nothing is in the way externally to prevent the cylinder from finding its seat. It should just slip over the piston (you must depress the rings to get it on, and then find home at the bottom. There should be plenty of threads at the top. The notion of backing out the bolts to get enough thread to fit the head on suggests forcing the cylinder into place by torquing the nuts. I really don't like that at all. Check again to see that all is clear. Jiggle it if you can. If all is clear, try gently persuasion with a rubber mallet. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 28 May 2012 at 12:14am
| I should clarify, there is plenty of thread for the head. The Piston and the rings all went in smoothly. Inserting the six mounting bolts took a little leverage to line up the engine mounts. But when it was all done, the cylinder is still a 1/8 to 1/4 inch fom the motor. The piston moves through the cylinder smottly. Tomorrow I will take another look around the cylinder and mayby try a rubber mallet to pursuade it. |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 28 May 2012 at 8:42pm
| make sure the guide ring-part no 46 on page 32 of the parts manual is aligned. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 01 June 2012 at 8:09pm
|
Progress Update; The cylinder is on and the head is on and torqued, now it’s
time to use feeler gauges to check for value clearance. Another 1st
for me. The workshop manual calls for .20mm on the inlet (starboard) and .25mm
on the exhaust (port). There is also in handwriting next to these measurements
of .050 and .065 I assume these are in thousandths. But being that they are handwritten
I don’t trust these numbers. Here are
the question; I have these feeler gauges with the following numbers; .010 0,25 mm Ok – so which is the metric number? The rest I am good to go on, lightly oil the gauge, no tension
on the spring of the value, measure the space between the rocker arm and the
value, adjust the nut. One more nagging thought, the workshop manual states that the
pushrod closest to the cylinder is the intake, the furthest one is the exhaust.
I was told after that is set, then the rods will lie side by side with the
intake pushrod being on the starboard (or the air filter side) and the exhaust
pushrod being on the port side or the exhaust elbow side. However when I referred to the parts diagram
to see how the rest of the parts come together, I noticed that the diagram has
the pushrods side by side in the opposite configuration. Please validate this
so I can sleep tonight……. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 01 June 2012 at 8:38pm
| The lifters are vertically aligned..... the top push rod is the intake(starboard side) and the bottom push rod is the exhaust (port side) Page C6 workshop manual |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 01 June 2012 at 9:18pm
| The smaller values in all cases you reference are the inch equivalent to the metric. |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 01 June 2012 at 11:32pm
|
.20 mm = .008 in .25 mm = .010 in if the pushrods are not aligned , it won't start- think, on compression, both valves are closed. my dockmate paid a mechanic to screw this up and it was an easy fix which got me a bottle of good wine.
|
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 01 June 2012 at 11:40pm
|
OK - I am all good. The pushrods are aligned, the values are adjusted and everything is back together without any extra bolts or nuts to show for it. Filled up the oil, primed the fuel and water pumps and tomorrow we will see if she fires up. Then it will be 3 -5 oil changes to get the mositure out of the crank case. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 02 June 2012 at 8:57am
| You are better using 25 thou for exhaust and 20 thou for intake. Because we (bukh and I) that the factory tolerence was too tight for an engine with a mix of alloy and cast steel parts. On some engines with the original factory tolerence the gaps over time became tighter resulting in the valve not completely closing and therefore no compression and no start. I witnessed this problem on about 5 engines. Re adjust to a looser tolerence and problem solved. Bukh never changed their literature to reflect this but later motoers were delivered with looser valve adjustments. My engine had this problem and I set it to 25+20 thou and she runs fine. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 02 June 2012 at 9:31am
|
OK -- Just so I am clear you are reffering to thousandths not mm. which means I will use the .020 / 0,51mm for intake and .025 / 0,64 for exhaust. This will more than double my current clearance. Is there an indication that the values are too loose? I thought id you heard a ticking sound that was a clue you were to loose. I won't be able to do any more until Sunday so I have time to get this right. Thanks
|
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 02 June 2012 at 11:21am
| yes that is correct. The original numbers were very very tight, barely any movement on the rocker. With these numbers there is a noticeable space. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 12:10am
|
First of all, thanks to all that have helped
me through this process, you have kept me on track and minimized the anxiety of
learning to be a diesel mechanic! Everything is back together, values
re-adjusted to Bill Layton’s specs, bled the fuel system and she fired right up
Other than a dabble of water from the drain plug on the cylinder, all the fuel
and water connections are good. Six oil changes later I now have some good looking
oil. Some lessons along the way, if you are using a 5 gallon bucket in the
cockpit for the water supply (I am on a trailer) then be sure to pull the water
intake line out of the bucket before you go to lunch, it turns out the water
will keep on siphoning and fill up the exhaust muffler and back into your
exhaust port. Which case it made quite a mess when I started the motor after
lunch. Also don’t overfill the oil, again another mess. Now that I have good looking oil I wanted to
run the motor for a longer period of time, at least 10-15 minutes. Not trusting
my alarm system I kept an eye on the exhaust (I noticed that the water and
exhaust never heated up, it was always cool water) and the water pump not
having any leaks. I also monitored the cylinder to see if it became too hot to
touch. Along the way I was lead to believe that you should always be able to
place a hand on the cylinder with it never being too hot to touch. Well, after 5
minutes it became hot enough where I could not keep my hand on it for more than
15-20 seconds. So I shut the engine down and let it cool off. I have since pulled all the water hoses to
check for blockage, which I had none. And then I pulled the thermostat and
checked it on the stove top for functionality. It opened up at 60 degrees. So
those two options have been eliminated. Any other thoughts? |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:03am
| Thats sounds perfectly normal. The engine needs some heat else it wouldn't be operating efficiently. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 11:49am
|
I think you are a STAR for having delved into your engine with the limited mechanical experience you have. Everything you did was quite intelligently done, and all of it in a very difficult space to work in. Congratulations!
The thermostat is factory set at 130f. This is quite cool in that the engine would run more efficiently if it ran hotter. However, since it uses raw water for cooling, a higher temp would encourage the development of mineral deposits within the cooling ports, so the lower temp setting is used to prevent this. However, even 130f is quite warm to the touch, and then the exhaust is a very hot product of the combustion (or diesel explosion) process and is combined on the exhaust side of the head before exit, so the temperature on the head, is going to be quite warm to the touch. From what you say, yours seems right. Now go sailing! |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 1:39pm
|
again thanks for easing my concerns, just
after many hours and more dollars invested into this project, I didn't want to
overheat the engine in the first 15 minutes! I picked up a inferred temperature
gauge this morning and I will be using to quell my fears over this summer. If I
think if the engine is to warm I can point it at the cylinder and see how warm
it is. Keith states it will run about 70 c. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 2:13pm
| yes. 70c is 158f, about the same as your domestic hot water temp which is a little hot to leave your hand in. |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 4:28pm
|
How lucky you were that the exhaust valve was closed when the water siphoned back to the port-it could have been a rod bending experience. Bill's comments re valve clearance are interesting- steel valves tend to hammer into aluminum heads but I must admit those strike me as big clearances. I set my valves to the factory specs 20 hours ago-will recheck asap to see if there is any change.
|
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 4:34pm
| The head and cylinder are cast steel but the block is aluminum. |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 4:56pm
| To add more to this phenomenon, the lifters sit in the aluminum block. So when it gets warm it expands moving the push rod towards the head. Since the rockers are adjusted at the top end (cylinder head) it can't compensate for this, and the valve lash effectively diminishes. Unless you adjust them when the engine is hot like one normally would on any other engine. Anyone that wants to use the original tolerances needs to consider this. I've seen engines that were 2, 5, 10, 15 and 20 yrs old and suddenly no compression, do a valve adjustment and bingo all is well again. Most valve lash would get loose over time but this is the opposite oddly enough. |
Posted By: bal149
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:33pm
| re head and cylinder- I was referring to the need to watch valve lash in an aluminum head-the Bukh of course has an iron head. The Cylinder, I thought, was aluminum with an iron sleeve. But I may be wrong. The pushrods sit on a steel cam which has less expansion. I will of course defer to Bill who has much more experience than I do with these engines and as far as valve lash is concerned, I will look very closely at his recommendations. If the block expands more than the bearing on which it turns, there will be less block bearing play, but the rockers will not be pushed up by the push rods. If the cylinder grows more than the pushrods, lash will indeed be decreased which is likely the situation in this engine. I will bring a magnet to my boat the next time I go and check what is what. |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 04 June 2012 at 8:53pm
| You won't need a magnet. The cylinder is one piece, all steel. The crank case is aluminum, and the head is cast iron. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 05 June 2012 at 1:06pm
|
Well all is good, put the cooling system back together and fired up the motor, used a infrared thermonitor to track temps on the cylinder and all is good, it runs up to about 65-70 c at idle and a little cooler with the revs up. Ran it for about 20 minutes and I am now happy. The only things left to do is re torque the head bolts after 10 hours of run time. Thanks again!
|
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 05 June 2012 at 1:20pm
| Hope you greased where the head nuts go onto the threaded rod..... if not, with a cool engine remove one at a time, grease and re torque. When torquing head nuts they should never gall, that is a creaking noise where it feels like the nut is beginning to jam on the threads. If this happens the head doesn't acheive the proper clamping pressure to seal the headgasket. And this is a common problem. Also to compensate for well worn stud threads and rust within the nut I over torque by 10%. This ensures adequate clamping pressure. If you do all this and still find the nut creaks while torquing then the studs would need to be passed thru a die and the nuts retapped or possibly even changing of parts. I've seen some pretty bad studs out there before. |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 06 June 2012 at 3:29pm
| I used anti-seized on bolt ends of the bolt. Had no galling, or creaking. Per Keith's reccomendations, I torqued to 7 kps and will torque it to 9-10 kps after 10 hours of run time. Which for me probadly will be at the end of summer. Lots of work to run this little engine for 10 hours. I hate to do the math what it cost me per hour of run time! |
Posted By: Winner
Date Posted: 08 June 2012 at 8:41am
|
Don't ever do that sort of math! Too depressing! I've been following this thread with interest. Great job Seawolf at all your hard work! ------------- Chris Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
Posted By: Seawolf
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 5:52pm
|
An update: So far The engine has given me no trouble and
continues to operate in 148 – 165 F degrees range. Not trusting my sensors, I
have religiously checked the oil and use a laser thermo gun to check the temp
on the cylinder and cylinder head. Now I know I have to re-torque the cylinder
heads after 10 hours of operation, and I have been keeping notes of operating
time, and I have also been checking the fuel level to gauge how much the engine
has ran. I thought I read somewhere that the engine
burns about 1/3 gallon per hour. Which means after 10 hours I would have burned
3.3 gallons or 1/3 of my tank capacity. Can someone validate that the engine
burns about 1/3 gallon per hour? Thanks. Mark Gilmore Commodore, SFSA Flathead Lake, MT S/v Seawolf |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 07 December 2019 at 10:09am
|
Hi, I'm getting ready to reinstall a reconditioned head. Would you confirm the torque spec and convert it to foot-pounds? I saw Bill's comment to add 10% so I think the value in the manual is understated. Thanks, john |
Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 07 December 2019 at 10:51am
|
John, I used the torque wrench the first time I put the head back on, I've done it at least three times, and subsequent tightenings I have just tightened it up a notch by feel, so I don't have an opinion on this, nor much experience. I should really do it again now, and your message reminds me that I should take the torque wrench down and do it right. I would go with Bill's recommendation. I will get out my workshop manual for reference and give you the conversion later today. Frank |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 07 December 2019 at 12:55pm
|
A few things that should be done. Pass a die (as in tap and die) over the threads on the studs. Also you must re tap the nuts. This gets the garbage off the threads. Then coat all the threads and studs and nuts with anti-seize compound (gray stuff found at automotive stores) (lots on the threaded parts) This acts as a thread lube and it's far better than using oil. I torque to 60 Foot Lbs the conversion in the manual states 68.6NM and that translates to 50.6 Lbs but I find that too light and I had some gasket failures at this torque. After using 60 Ft Lbs I didn't have anymore problems. Remember once your engine is fully warmed up in the boat to re-torque to 60 FT Lbs again. To do this the nipple on the side of the fuel injector needs to be removed to get access to the top port nut. Then it should last a very long time. While your head is off be sure the bypass pipe / bracket held on with two 10mm bolts is removed and inspected as this is where it can get clogged up with rust and sediment and cause a blockage. (bottom stb side of head) This is the usual cause for the head warping to begin with as it allows the head to overheat.
|
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 31 December 2019 at 1:37pm
| How do you set the pushrods? thx |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 31 December 2019 at 2:08pm
|
The service manual states: "When fitting the pushrods it should be observed that the pushrod which is nearest to the cylinder is for the inlet and the one furthest away is for the exhaust. When being inattentive it may be possible to exchange the pushrods by mistake." This is all that is stated in the workshop manual. I can email this to you if you'd like a copy. In short the pushrods and lifters are positioned vertically. The top pushrod is the intake and the bottom rod is exhaust. The trick is to put them in place with the ball pushed into the lifters using grease to hold it there in place. Then try to slide the head in place without moving anything. It's awkward and take's few tries. Aside of this valve lash should be the same numbers but in thousands of an inch ( 20 +25 thou) They spec this in mm but the factory spec is too tight and caused problems down the road.
|
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 31 December 2019 at 3:48pm
| yes, I was stuck at the awkward part. Bearing grease on the rod tips did the trick. Thanks Bill. |
Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 01 January 2020 at 1:45pm
|
I can get 18 thou lash on the intake but not 20. I hope that's ok. js |
Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 01 January 2020 at 8:40pm
| Close enough and much better than .20mm |