Sailing - Ballast for Upwind performance?

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Ballast for Upwind performance?

Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
Category: Laser 28 General
Forum Name: Sailing
Forum Description: Everything on sailing the boat
URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=289
Printed Date: 23 November 2024 at 3:32am
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Topic: Ballast for Upwind performance?

Posted By: jez rees
Subject: Ballast for Upwind performance?
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 5:41am

Recent racing has been in 18-25 knots. We're really struggling upwind to keep the boat flat(ter), if we don't we're just going sideways and slow.

It would probably help if we were fully crewed but sometimes we can only find four of us. Do people think that adding ballast around the saloon table bilges would help? I know it would affect our downwind speed but also might benefit our IRC rating (0.907).

We're only just learning the boat, but know that some L28s have this ballast and seem to be competitive even in double handed series.

The boat appears to have been ballasted once but has had it removed. Does anyone know how much is normal or is it just a matter of observing boat trim as it's loaded?

Thanks

Replies:

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 11:07am

I doubt adding ballast inside the boat would help much since it would not exert much leverage against overturning. I know some have added a few hundred lb in a bulb at the bottom of the keel. There’s a good bit of info on this in the web site. Have you tried sailing with a reef in the main? I assume under these conditions you are using the lapper head sail?

No doubt, to sail the stock boat to the numbers you need a lot of meat on the rail.

Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 22 December 2008 at 5:48am

Yeah, I think meat on the rail has got to be the answer. Blowing again yesterday morning, 1 reef (only boat in the fleet with a reef) and No. 3 headsail but only 4 people. Making far too much leeway which means that we have to sail low on the start and get stuffed on the first beat, races are lost then and there however much fun we have flying downwind and catching up.

The ballast addition would probably help with the IRC displacement number, as the way we are sailing at the moment we're not sailing to the rating. Short courses over an hour and half, heavy weather and in a mixed IRC fleet is maybe not the best place for a Laser to shine. But then again we could just be not very good.

Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 07 January 2009 at 1:30am

We sail often in those conditions with only 4 and manage to do okay. Others have said this, but again it is very important to let the boat get up to speed before trying to point. Also, we find that in the gusts we let the boat come up if we are late easing the main. When it does come up, it is amazing to watch the speed increase even though the boat is shaking itself out. This really demonstrates how the boat wants to be sailed flat.

-------------
Frank Fletcher

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 17 January 2009 at 11:40pm

Jez rees says, "Short courses over an hour and half, heavy weather and in a mixed IRC fleet is maybe not the best place for a Laser to shine. "

I'm not sure about IRC; we sail PHRF. But in those conditions we are untouchable provided we have at least 6. (Eight's even faster!) Here are some pointers for these conditions:

Up-wind:

Lapper and full main should be fine up to at least 22-kts.
All hand s except skipper hike. Hike hard. All asses almost falling off the boat.
Outhaul, cunningham, back stay on... a lot!
Absolutely whale on main sheet. Sheeting the main hard flattens both the main and lapper. I only have a 5:1 main-sheet so in these conditions I actually set the tiller down for a second and tighten the sheet with both hands. (I long ago left my “fine trim” on the dock.)
Vang: just pull slack out after number 4 above.
Skipper works traveler constantly with the tiller to keep the boat flat and moving. Target speed is in the high 5-kts range. If you fall below 5-kts you are probably pinching too much. Don't worry that the competition seems to be out pointing you. Learn how to work traveler and steer simultaneously – you can't afford the body inboard to help the skipper with the main. If your traveler doesn't work well, fix or replace it. (search this forum for “traveler” for suggestions.) I can't stress enough how important the traveler is.

Number 6 takes practice but it is the key to winning with the laser 28 in anything over 12-kts. (And many other fractional rigged boats for that matter.)

Down wind:

Hand mainsheet off to one of the crew. They don't need to be out on the rail now and having the extra hand back there helps tremendously.
Vang off 3-inches or so. Use the leach at the top batten as a guide. It should be parallel with the boom or slightly twisted off.
If it's really windy designate a crew member to keep the vang in their hand. Their job is to ease (read “blow-off entirely") the vang if the boat starts to roll out. My vang line reaches back to the cockpit.
Ease cunningham, outhaul, and back stay. Do not forget to put them back on before you get to the leeward mark. Particularly the outhaul.
If you are sailing dead down wind set both the windward and leeward tweakers so they're about even with the lifelines. This will cut down on the rocking.

Posted By: lucgmix
Date Posted: 18 January 2009 at 9:52pm

Hi khardy,

Where do you sail and what is your PHRF rating? Here, in PHRF-LO (Lac Ontario), it's 126.

-------------
Luc Gregoire

Colibri 224

Tactician

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 2:58pm

We are in Tampa, Florida. Our typical wind is light which explains our higher PHFR rating of 132. We rate even with S2 9.2s and J-30s. There are a few Soveral 30s who rate within a second. The J-27s owe us 9-sec per mile.

But when the wind is up around 18 we have no problems beating the J-27 boat for boat if we sail as I outline above.

Posted By: lucgmix
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 5:23pm

Here, we have a 9 sec difference with the J-30, we owe them.

Do you guys have lots of Laser 28 in your area?

We did the Canadian championships with 19 boats (all Laser 28) last September, great times!

Our North American's in Kingston had over 30 boats in the first years after the boat was built.

-------------
Luc Gregoire

Colibri 224

Tactician

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 7:01pm

Sadly there's only one other L-28 in Florida and she's on the other coast. My only consolation is that my PHRF class includes 8-regular starters who are all with in 2-sec per mile of us. Maybe some year I'll make it up there for a north american.

Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 12:58pm

Thanks for the info khardy. That's just the kind of stuff that speeds up the learning curve!

Traveller works OK but I can see that a Harken windward sheeting car would be a bonus if I've gotta drive, keep her on the rails and dump down the track. More money!!

I'm going with a tape measure to look at our No. 3 compared with a lapper (based on dims elsewhere on this forum). Tell me, are the lappers high cut or deck sweeping? sheeting on forward track cabin roof? I don't suppose there's a photo of a nice one anywhere? Thinking about re-rating without the big genoa.

Cheers.

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 9:13am

The single biggest improvement I made to my boat was replacing the stock traveler system with the harken windward sheeting system. It’s expensive but I believe it’s the best bang for the buck.

Our lapper goes on the inboard track; I’m pretty sure with the cars almost all the way forward. When you are fully sheeted the clew of the lapper should almost touch the block on the car. I’ve never tried the outboard track but I suppose if you had big waves it would help.

The stock lapper sweeps the deck. I believe it’s a 106% (maybe 108%?) overlap. I thought seriously about changing my rating to lapper only, but we sail in a lot of light air and spend too much time reaching. In any event, once the wind’s up to 12-kts you can switch to the lapper.

Posted By: murph
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 10:55am

Yes the original Lapper does sweep the deck and it still is used as a class sail. Its 106%, ironically Bruce Farr designed this boat for use with this as its largest headsail...non overlapping jib technically speaking. Same as Mumm30, Farr40 etc... very similar bendy rig too.

The builder put the Genoa in the inventory because early owners had to sail PHRF until there were enough boats to form a class and have one-design racing. When this occured most owners agreed that they'd like to keep the genoa as part of the standard boat. Reality is that the L28 sails faster with its Lapper at 11 Knots true or above. The Lapper uses the forward upper deck tracks and yes the clew does almost touch the fairlead

Hope this helps

Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:22am

As an update - It appears that our No. 3 headsail has very similar dims to those stated for a "lapper", we're just having a No. 4 built which should help with the heavier stuff.

Mast down and back up last weekend. We only had a forestay length of around 9.88m and not the 9.932m as recommended by the Hood tuning guide, this seems to equate with the 32'6-7" mentioned in this forum. I've extended the forestay and have put a bowline in the backstay but haven't yet tensioned the shrouds, we've got an extreme rake at the moment , I'm hoping this is going to to turn into pre-bend once tensioned. Is this normal.

The lack of rake might be the answer to our poor upwind performance!

Cheers,

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 12:59pm

The best advice i've seen on tuing is on this fourm at the following link:

http://www.laser28.org/chat/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=3&TopicID=11&SearchPagePosition=1&search=lowers&searchMode=allwords&searchIn=Thread&forum=0&searchSort=dateDESC&ReturnPage=Search">http://www.laser28.org/chat/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=3&TopicID=11&SearchPagePosition=1&search=lowers&searchMode=allwords&searchIn=Thread&forum=0&searchSort=dateDESC&ReturnPage=Search

Note that the measurements for forestay length is measured "pin to pin" and not the length of the forestay.

Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 10:23am

Yeah that kinda confirms the dimension for the forestay length pin to pin that we're working on, I had to put an extra 2 inch long cleats on the turnbuckle to get there though. I just hope that our mast foot is in the same place as everyone else's. We have a J measurement of 2.95 so that checks out.

It's interesting that the Hood tuning guide recommends 1490lb tension on the uppers which equates to 38 loos gauge compared to the 32 recommended by that post.

It'll all become clear!

Posted By: khardy
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 11:19am

For what it's worth, the north tuning guide follows the post i provided the link to. No telling why the hood guide is diffferent.

Posted By: JFG104
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 12:59pm

I've heard that mast foot on early models was not at same location as later models. Can anyone confirm this? JF

Posted By: jez rees
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 6:50am

Farr Out's mast tuned in lovely. 9.932 forestay length, 32 uppers, 29 lowers.

Posted By: murph
Date Posted: 05 April 2009 at 11:26pm

Quote: Originally posted by JFG104 on 19 March 2009
I've heard that mast foot on early models was not at same location as later models. Can anyone confirm this? JF

Yes I can confirm all L28 masts are in the exact same location without question. Forestay lengths may not be all exactly the same but everything else is