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Hull Joint Rub Rail

Printed From: Laser 28 International Class Association
Category: Laser 28 General
Forum Name: Maintenance
Forum Description: All the things to care for your boat
URL: http://www.laser28.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=260
Printed Date: 24 November 2020 at 2:14am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Hull Joint Rub Rail
Posted By: frfletch
Subject: Hull Joint Rub Rail
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 11:18am
I just purchased hull 166, Voila, and am working on making her the boat I want. The rub rail at the hull/deck joint looks awful, worsened by a previous owner with a caulking gun. I note the rub rail fails to meet the hull by about 3/8" on the top which is what he tried to fill and the rail itself is old, oxidized and ugly. Is there a replacement for these?

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Frank Fletcher



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 4:29pm
The rub rail on Andiamo! is ugly as well.  I checked everywhere for the exact replacement, but found nothing.  However, Hamilton Marine in Bath, Maine has a suitable replacement rail.  http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,8742.html">http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,8742.html


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 10:49am
Thanks for the information regarding the rail. Do you know, or have you looked to see what the joint flange actually looks like under the rail. How far does it protrude from the hull and how thick are the two pieces flanged together? I found several mouldings from Wefco Rubber Mfg Co. that might be suitable, but can't tell for sure without knowing configuration of joint.

Frank

-------------
Frank Fletcher


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 7:50pm
I have a picture with a scale on it, which shows the thickness.  On Andiamo! the width varies.  It looks like someone practiced putting this boat together.  I will search for and scan the photo.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 3:11pm
The joint flange is approximately 3/4 of an inch or 20 mm and the thickness is 1/2 inch or 12 mm.  Hope that this helps, and if you find a suitable rubrail. please let me know.


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 2:51am
Thanks. I will refine my hunt for a new rub rail with those dimensions as guideline and let you know what I come up with.
Frank

-------------
Frank Fletcher


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 9:09pm
Thanks for the help regarding measurements for the flange in support of the rub rail search. For those of you who asked, my research takes me to www/wefcprubber.com who have a huge array of rub rail configurations and sizes for marine applications. If you download and print their section sizes, they come out in true size. Available in black or white with 2-3 weeks delivery time.

Frank

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Frank Fletcher


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 9:10pm
Sorry for the typo. It is wefcorubber.com

Frank

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Frank Fletcher


Posted By: Chris Ross
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 6:45pm


I'm missing a 3' section of rubrail and I have been looking for a replacement for a while now. I was told the rub rail was custom made for the boat, so I really didn't look that hard for a replacement. I have decided to just make a new rubrail using a combination of EPR and PE. I work at a plastics company, so I have access to what I need to put something together. If it works out I'll let you know.

-------------
Chris Ross


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 1:13am
Chris,

Did you ever make up the rub rail. My time to replace is now.


Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 7:20am
I am in the midst of replacing the rub rails as well (port/starboard and the port Hunter34 smooshed 2 rails on my starboard side...) and I am going to have in my hands this week a plastic replacemetn cut to size. This is the type of rail used by the J Boats and comes in white, priced at $65 pre section with end caps included. As soon as my test strip arrives I will take a picture and post it. My problem with other alternatives was getting somethgin that would "curve" appropriately, this solution (so the guy assures me) is hard ABS-type plastic that flexes enough to follow curve of hull/deck. Main difference I can see is that they will need to be screwed in rather than bolted from below.

-------------
Bill Ryan,

Room4Crew, #155


Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 9:56am
WJRyan, I believe you may be referring to the Toe-Rails (deck mounted) rather then the Rub-Rail (PVC) covering the hull-deck joint.

Cheers


Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 7:40am
My apologies, Bill is absolutely correct. I guess my smooshed toe rails have "rubbed" me the wrong way! Sorry for confusing the posts althoughanyone with info on replacing toe rails I have 2 to replace and/or 6 to change completely - pics of info noted above will be posted as soon as I get them.

-------------
Bill Ryan,

Room4Crew, #155


Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 8:31am
lol. i was checking my boat last night thinking... "my rub rails are bolted on?" ;-)


Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 10:15am
Bill, I've been looking at the very same rail on a J/80 docked beside us. It does look like a good alternative. I'm not sure how its attached though.

FYI, the alum rail on the L28 comes as a straight extrusion, but having a wall thickness of .049 its easily flexible. The 1/4x20 Hex Head bolts slide into the alum extrusion (we designed it this way) and the holes in the deck follow the curve on the deck.... underneath we used lock nuts. It'll all make sense once you disassemble one.

Originally posted by WJRyan WJRyan wrote:

I am in the midst of replacing the rub rails as well (port/starboard and the port Hunter34 smooshed 2 rails on my starboard side...) and I am going to have in my hands this week a plastic replacemetn cut to size. This is the type of rail used by the J Boats and comes in white, priced at $65 pre section with end caps included. As soon as my test strip arrives I will take a picture and post it. My problem with other alternatives was getting somethgin that would "curve" appropriately, this solution (so the guy assures me) is hard ABS-type plastic that flexes enough to follow curve of hull/deck. Main difference I can see is that they will need to be screwed in rather than bolted from below.


Posted By: Brad Cairns
Date Posted: 21 September 2009 at 10:40am
Three years ago I sourced a replacement rub-rail for my Laser 28 from a company called A GLASS ACT (mentioned in Practical Sailor) located at 820 W. Esther Street LONG BEACH, CA 90813-1440.Phone 562 432-4312. They are made of custom extruded rubber in white or grey. They will fax you sheets of different extusions to choose from. I used DIE # 1944 which fits well and is a little larger then the original. The larger size is quite hansome and offers good protection from port tackers. The material is very rugged and easy to install. The company recommended neutural cure silicone to intall the rub-rail but this only lasted two years. I have re-done it with 3M5200 and this seems to be holding well.The cost for 65 feet of rub-rail in 2006 was $550.00 U.S.


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 24 September 2009 at 5:27am
I have just ordered new rubrail in black EPDM rubber from Wefco Rubber in Canoga Park California. I chose section number 2770 which is a little deeper than the original and should cover the flange and come up to the hull. I expect it here in the next couple of days and will report on how it works out.


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 12:01pm
Regarding rub rails, I just received my replacement rub rail material from WEFCO and it fits perfectly. Better than the original in that the side walls go all the way to the hull top and bottom. It is the 2770 section. I have not fully mounted it yet, but it conforms well to the curves. I ordered a few extra feet so that I can practice miters to do the 4 corners. Cost was $3.00 per foot in black EPBM rubber.


Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 12:27pm
great, are you going to use something like lifebouy caulk to seal the rub rail in place? are you going to crazy glue the miters or hold them in place w/ the caulk. curious cause i'm planning to do this in about a month. john


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 3:38pm
When I replaced the rub rail on Andiamo!, I cut out about 1/2 an inch of the top surface at the mitered corner to allow water to drain away from between the rub rail and the deck. This reduces the chance that water can infiltrate through the hull/deck joint.


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 12 October 2009 at 1:40pm
I just completed installation of a new rub rail on Voila 166 using the 2770 section from Wefco Rubber and thought someone may find the information and experience of interest.

The rail material cost was US$3.00 plus shipping and I ordered it in black. They do black, white and grey, but only run grey when they have orders whose grey color material requirements exceed 200 lbs, so for grey one must wait bit unless your timing is lucky. Wefco manufactured and shipped within a week of the order.

Prior to selection of the section, I pulled a bit of the old rub rail off to find that the flange at the hull/deck joint was about 11mm thick and protruded 24mm from the hull, so the 2770 section looked a perfect fit and for the most part it was. The original rail had an outside depth dimension of only 22mm and an inside dimension of about 18mm, leaving it sticking quite far from the hull. I discovered the reason for that after I pulled all of the old rub rail off, and that is that in the molding and assembling process there is quite a bit of variation both in the thickness of the rail and in the amount in protrudes from the hull. By using a shallower section, they did not have to fiddle with either the joint flange, nor the rub rail section and could just glue it on allowing the gap between the edge of the rub rail and the hull to vary a little. Using the sightly deeper 2770 section which has an internal depth measurement of 24mm, same as the flange for most of the hull, the fit is perfect, however where the flange sticks out further, the rail stands off the hull a bit defining that gap. That is easy to take care of by grinding a bit off those sections of the flange and bringing them down to 24mm. The more challenging bit comes when the flange is less than 24mm, say perhaps only 20mm in which case the inside end of the rail will not make contact with the flange, and for the most part, this is where the bond is taking place.

Ideally, for this one would build out those sections of rail a bit with some epoxy and medium density filler and then grind it to conform, which would be pretty easy with some wood slats and waxed paper, etc. For Voila, we were out of time. It was -6C here this morning and we are expecting snow tonight. So, I trimmed some width out of the rail in a few places using a Dremmel with the small barrel sanding attachment and where I could not quite make contact, I added extra sealant adhesive to those areas and also applied the sealant to the side rails to increase the bond.

Mitering the corners had been a concern to me, but I found a good way to do this. I first put the rail onto the boat starting in the center of the transom and pulled in around the entire hull, making sure it was well "clipped" onto the flange with the little teeth inside the rub rail section. I did my best to put an equal amount of tension on the rub rail as I snapped it in place which was limited and measured by the tension wanting to pull the ladder over if one applied too much pull to the tail bit. When the rail was all on the boat, I cut off the extra leaving a couple of inches spare. Then I went around and marked the center of all the corners to be mitered. There are two on the bow, and one at each corner in the back. After marking, I took the entire section in the house where it was warm and used my kitchen counter as a workbench. I placed some duct tape on the counter, overlapped to get the correct circumference of the rail section, drew a line down the center longitudinally, and then layed out the mitered cuts which I had measured with an angle gauge, but I can confirm that for the two corners forward the "V" cuts are 20mm from the edge of the rail x 30mm wide, and for the bow section they were 20mm x 20mm. I used a piece of 3/8" plywood about 6" wide by 10" long to mount the section I was mitering on, to hold the section stable for cutting. Then using one of those larger art cutters with a new section exposed for sharpness, and being very sure to hold the knife dead vertical, I cut the notches. Directly after cutting I pulled the miter to check for fit, and then glued the miter using a product called Miracle Glue and held until fast (about 20 seconds). It was useful that I purchased about an extra 10' of this material to practice with, and I think I will be cutting a slice out of about a 7' length of it to fit the wider top flange on the transom, which is what was done with the original rail at the factory. You will find that the original rail is wider on its top across the transom owing the the greater difference between the depth of the flange on the bottom and top in that area because of the transom angle.

I then transferred everything back out to the boat. Make sure that the starting cut is very clean and straight top accept gluing the ends together at the center of the transom. The final cut will be in situ and one of those is enough.

To not put any stress on the newly mitered joints, I never let them hang from the rail. I pre suspended the rail using light line and the lifelines and the toe rail cars to hold the rail up at the working level. Otherwise, the hanging weight of the tail of the rail would possibly open up the newly glued joints, plus it would pull down and pull newly mounted and sealed rail away from the hull. Supporting the entire rail with lines made it easy, particularly as I was working alone.

In order to get the inside teeth of the rail to open and get around the outside of the flange, I bent the rail out from the hull a bit while applying in a radius away from the boat which opened the mouth of the rail and allowed it to more easily fit over the flange.

I used a white colored 3M 4800, we'll see how it works, and applied it to the inside of the rail instead of the boat to contain the mess. I used the nozzle of the cartridge to spread it a bit to the outsides, but did not come past the outside teeth of the rail which would have made the process very messy. Particularly working with a white hull deck, bright blue sides, black rail, and white sealant. Keeping the nozzle body clean on the outside was important in not getting the white sealant all over the external portion of the black rail so every couple of applications, I wiped the nozzle body down with a small piece of paper towel and then discarded it.

For cleanup, the 4800 laughed at acetone, but yielded to a product called Goof Off, used for removing adhesive glues from masking, label removal etc.

When I got to the end, I cut the end to length and used the Miracle Glue to butt joint the rail together.

The final result looks very good indeed. With the weather being very cool, here, it will be a while before the sealant and fastness of the rail can be tested. I'm guessing that I may have to lift the flaps of the rail in a few places, but that will have to be at another time. All this work is being done in Whistler, BC, and there is no more weather for this sort of work.

I took pictures of the mitering process if anyone is interested.

Pic of original grey PVC rubrail and the new black rubber #2770 profile
http://img444.imageshack.us/i/dsc0054t.jpg/">


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 October 2009 at 8:22am
I would love to have the pictures as I am planning the same thing next spring, here on the east coast (NB) Please send to corbmike at nb.sympatico.ca


Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 13 October 2009 at 12:28pm
frfletch, what length of section did you purchase? and would you suggest a section with a more shallow depth so there is less impact due to the flange depth fluctuations? thx
p.s.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3M stuff, as you noted, really hard to clean. I'm hoping the lifebouy will be sufficent.


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 1:35am
I ordered 70' and have 16 1/2' left over. I never actually measured the length they sent me. Regarding section size, the Laser rail is the very small and it is difficult enough finding anything that small yet with a mouth large enough to snap over the flange. If I can find your email address, I will send you a comparison photo of the old rail and new rail sections side-by-side. They are very similar.

Anyone you ask regarding sealant/adhesive will advise you to go straight to 5200. I used 4800 because it is cold here. It flurried all day today, and 4800 cures in 24 hours whereas 5200 cures in 7 days. The 4800 cleans up okay using Goof Off, but not as easily as Sikaflex 921, but then again that is a 72 hours material. It is best to work clean. I only had to spot clean the boat sides and rail in a couple of places, and this is usually owing to allowing the outside of the nozzle to get dirty, or having an unsteady hand when sticking the nozzle inside the rail while holding it from the end of a caulking gun. You are up on a ladder, holding the rail in one hand and trying to hold the mouth open, and then sticking the nozzle inside the mouth which is quite small. Perhaps a shot of Tequila may have been good just to steady things a little.


Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 6:40am
Thanks frfletch, I find that Sauza Hornitos works very well. You can mail me at jstephenson at hvc.rr.com


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 12:16pm
With Bill's help, I'm trying herein to post some pics of my recent rub rail mitering, etc. There is also a photo of the hull flange in on of the areas where it is less than 24mm from the hull.

http://img208.imageshack.us/i/dsc0046dj.jpg/">
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/dsc0049mp.jpg/">
http://img73.imageshack.us/i/dsc0048w.jpg/">
http://img185.imageshack.us/i/dsc0043l.jpg/">
http://img185.imageshack.us/i/dsc0040zz.jpg/">
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/dsc0032d.jpg/">
http://img185.imageshack.us/i/dsc0028a.jpg/">
http://img376.imageshack.us/i/dsc0027l.jpg/">
http://img185.imageshack.us/i/dsc0023e.jpg/">
http://img127.imageshack.us/i/dsc0007b.jpg/">
http://img340.imageshack.us/i/dsc0054rv.jpg/">


Posted By: Chris Ross
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 6:30pm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ensignyachts/5962164635/in/photostream/

check out this interesting rub rail solution.


Posted By: Chris Ross
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 6:42pm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ensignyachts/5940341015/in/photostream/

Damn is she pretty!


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 1:19pm
She is pretty, but I can't tell what the rub rail solution was. Do you think he just painted the original PVC rail?


Posted By: Chris Ross
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 2:02pm
It looks like wood to me.


Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 21 October 2014 at 10:27pm
frfletch,

I may take on the rub rail project this winter.

Now that you have had your replacement rub rails for few years, how do you like them?  Would you have done anything different?  I've been researching WEFCO rails...I keep looking at https://http://www.wefcorubber.com/PDF/marine/Rub-Rail%20Hull%20&%20Deck%20Joint%20Solid.pdf - profile 0411 G  (4th page down-lower left corner) as a larger replacement rail possibility.  Did you consider that rail and decide against for any reason? 

Thanks,

   Ron


-------------
Hull 147 - Angel's Share


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 22 October 2014 at 1:00am
Ron,
As you know I used the section 2770. It has worked very well, and no I never looked at the 0411G. The 2770 may look a little wimpy in the Wefco website sketches, but it is actually very close to the original once it is spread out and on the boat. Also, one will find places on the flange joint where the flange is substantially less deep. This creates a problem because the new rub rail can't be well seated onto the flange and won't bond well. I pre-fit the entire rail before gluing and used a small sanding drum on a Dremmel to trim the inside lip of the rubber so that it would come all the way on to its final seating place so the sealant/adhesive could do its job.

Mine continues to work well. About every two years I wipe it down with some paint thinner and then coat it with Armourall, the tire dressing compound. This helps preserve the rubber against UV deterioration.

Also, in the article I posted, I spoke of using 3M 4200. I would now definitely use 5200. Also, I would use some tiny little #6 stainless counter-sinking wood screws screwed directly in the middle of the rail into the edge of the flange to locate and hold the rubber in place. You may elect to remove them after the 5200 sets, or you may leave them it. They are not noticeable.

I may have mentioned in the article that if I were doing it again I would take the time to build out the flange where it protrudes from the hull less than the average so that I did not have to trim the rail. The trimming is not noticeable to the eye, but it is inconvenient. The bond is reliant upon the rubber extrusion being set all the way home. That is because the staples and pop rivets that hold the flange together stick out quite a bit particularly on the bottom. This prevents the bottom flap from lying tight to the flange, so the adhesive in there (on the sides) does not make full contact with the flange as those protrusions hold it out. That means that you are much relying on the center interior of the rail for bonding to the outer lip of the flange. I think the heavy 0411G section would be very difficult to work with to get the result that will make you happy.

I have some extra of the 2770 section. I could cut off a sample piece and send it to you for you to touch and feel. Somewhere I think I provided a photo of the original flange section directly next to the 2770.

Some time after I did the project, Bill Layton did much research for suitable section to replace the rail on a boat that had been re-built after the trailer broke loose from the tow truck, and he ended up also using the 2770 section.

Good Luck with it. It certainly serves to "pick-up" the overall appearance of the boat.


Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 22 October 2014 at 8:55am
Great info.  If two of you have used the 2770 and it worked, I'll go with that.  Of course, now I have to work up the time and courage to take on the project.  On my Laser, it's visibly obvious moisture is being trapped in the joint by the old rub rail.  That leads to a consistent mold ring growing around the interior of the joint.  I would really like to end that.

Thanks,

  Ron


-------------
Hull 147 - Angel's Share


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 October 2014 at 9:27am
I also used the same cross-section from Wefco. Works well - I agree with Frank's comments on installation - a little planning reduces a lot of grief!


Posted By: Mad Max
Date Posted: 23 April 2015 at 3:12pm
Frank

Here is a  memory test.  I just ordered the 2770 extrusion from Wefco. My question is do you remember how many tubes of 3M 5200 it took to install the new Hull joint rub rail.


-------------
Dick #122


Posted By: fatjohnz
Date Posted: 23 April 2015 at 3:28pm
I'm not a fan of 5200; I've been using BoatLIFE Life-Calk (although I have had to do some touch-ups)
My memory is that one tube will do most of one side. Then a 3rd tube is needed to finish the sides and the back.
sj


Posted By: frfletch
Date Posted: 23 April 2015 at 3:58pm
I think two tubes should do it. I want to emphasize the idea of spending spending time to try to equalize the flange distance from hull. The flange varies a lot. In some places near the back on Voila it was very small, and nearer the front quarter it stuck out quite a bit. The problem with mounting the rail comes mostly from where the flange does not protrude sufficiently. The Wefco rail is configured on the inside to sort of grab the flange, but if the bottom sides of the rail hit the hull before the rail goes all the way down so that the flange fits nicely inside that grabbing bit, then you will have to flood the thing with sealant in an attempt to try to make it grade.

My recommendation then would be to take the old rail off and really clean up the flange. Take a section of the new Wefco rail (say a 6" piece), and try it first where the flange sticks out sufficiently to see how the new rail fits on that flange. Then try it on a portion of the flange that may not stick out sufficiently. You will immediately get a grip of the issue. In those areas you should build out the flange a bit. This could be done with a strip of stiff polyethylene sheeting cut to width, and clamped or screwed from the bottom onto the flange, and then filling the top with a glass-fill epoxy. After that sets, remove the polyethylene and use a sanding block or random orbital to square-up the outside of the flange. Alternatively, One could use a strip of 1/4" ply, or similar, and some cut strips of waxed paper to fit on top of it and be clamped between the flange and the ply, then epoxy on top of that.

If you don't do the above, you will have to trim the rail in those places so that the flange can fit into the grabbing portion on the inside. That varies the look of the rail and is a pain in the butt. However that is what I did because I started the process without awareness of what the problems were going to be with the localized areas of a lessor flange and to keep the project moving just used the drum sander on a dremel to trim the rail and move on.


Posted By: David DeBoy
Date Posted: 17 October 2015 at 7:14pm
Hello All,
Has anyone saved their removed original hull joint rub rail? I'm looking to patch in only a short section of my gray rub rail. Patch does not warrant replacing all of it.
I would gladly purchase this from you and arrange shipping. Please help me out if you can.
Thanks,
Dave


Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 17 October 2015 at 9:21pm
Sorry Dave.  I just did mine, but I did not have the foresight to save it for another purpose.  Wish I had now.

 Ron


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Hull 147 - Angel's Share


Posted By: Bill Layton
Date Posted: 18 October 2015 at 12:00am
David, just cut out the bad part and heat up the remaining rubrail and it'll stretch easily to the original length. Good luck!


Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 18 October 2015 at 8:31pm
And if anyone is looking for toe rails I have 3 available!  No rub rail alas....

-------------
Bill Ryan,

Room4Crew, #155


Posted By: WJRyan
Date Posted: 08 August 2020 at 5:26pm
Just curious if anyone has used a different solution other than the 2770 section from Wefco Rubber. If so let me know who and how it worked for you.

-------------
Bill Ryan,

Room4Crew, #155


Posted By: Ron Waterson
Date Posted: 08 August 2020 at 9:51pm
Hey Bill,

Link to Wefco profiles below, including 2770 which is what is on my boat.  Have a look at CQ marina if you like.  I wasn't impressed with the way mine was put on.  Messy job with 5200, but I think the rub rail was fine.  I'm pretty sure I have a left over piece if you need to see it.
http://www.wefcorubber.com/PDF/marine/Rub-Rail%20Hull%20&%20Deck%20Joint%20Solid.pdf" rel="nofollow - Rub-Rail Hull & Deck Joint Solid.pdf


-------------
Hull 147 - Angel's Share



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