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Lapper vs 155 genoa

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frfletch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:37pm
i just added a #1 to Voila which took my BC PHRF from 147 to 141, about 30 seconds per hour which is a very stiff penalty for carrying this thing. I now owe time to C&C 35's, etc. We have raced with it only once. Speed was good, but I went the wrong way on a tack and never recovered the loss, so not a good test.

Having considered the in hauling idea, I have already removed the inboard tracks when I re finished the boat, however I plotted the outside tracks to find them situated 11.5 degrees off center. Most modern boats sheet to about 9 degrees and some even less. However, our little Laser is challenged with wide spreaders and shrouds that come quite far outboard, so I can see that inboard of 11.5 one is going to be fighting the foot against the shrouds. We find the speed of this sail sheeted to the lower deck to be very similar to the lapper. If I was still racing in Squamish I would definitely ditch the #1 because we average 20 kts and flat water, however sailing in West Vancouver, we often have light or dying winds with a left-over slop, and we are trying a #1 for this purpose. Otherwise, under PHRF, I'm thinking it is a waist of time and money. I see that many of the Lasers we hear of sailing in the North Americans, etc, sail largely against one another, so I'm guessing that rating is not an issue, but I seriously doubt that the #1 can give you sufficient advantage to over come 30 seconds per hour. The penalty is carried downwind as well, so going to windward I guess one must see at least a 45 second per hour advantage in order to break even on rating/speed/time. Perhaps only in sloppy conditions. I'm wondering if those of you who speak to reaching might consider an asymetrical for that leg and drop the #1. The #1 will not reach that well sheeted to the track. Let's keep this conversation going and hear some more from those who sail in PHRF fleets.
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frfletch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2010 at 3:49pm
Back to this subject, using the lower track, and the 155 I'm just not getting the pointing ability with the genoa in any airs. This week I will try in-hauling a few degrees, but this inevitably means leaving the foot looser so as not to stretch it around the shrouds, and I'm then guessing that the upper part of the sail will start closing. In the last of our winter series, and before putting the 155 on board, I sailed with the 108 in very light airs(4-7true), though we had smooth seas, and had both boat speed and pointing ability over my main competitors, which are a Farr 31 racer cruiser, a C&C 35, and an Olson 911-l. Using the 155 these guys cut me up badly going upwind, as where they did not when I used the lapper. I will continue working with it a bit, but having difficulty justifying the 30 seconds per hour that it costs under phrf. By reviewing photos of Laser 28 competitions, I see they use the 155 almost exclusively, but then they are sailing against each other in level racing. I'm just finding the difference in pointing angles to be unbelievable. On the other hand, we know that lower track is at about 11.5% off center even when mounted tight into the radius between the deck and the rise to the cabin, where as the lapper is much less. I have not plotted it, but 9% is fairly common in boats of that era and of that speed range. Any suggestions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Winner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2013 at 11:03pm
I've read this discussion with interest and it seems no consensus was reached as to lapper vs genoa overall, although there does seem to be agreement that the lapper definitely points better and is generally preferred in winds over 12 kts  whilst the genoa will do better in light air sailing on a reach.

What seems seems debatable is which is better for racing a windward/leeward course in light winds.

The genoa/lapper debate aside for the moment, my question, going back to Frank's comment above, would be whether to consider going with a lapper/reaching spinnaker (such as the North Sails S1 symmetrical) combination instead of a lapper/genoa for light winds.  The spinnaker won't point as high as the genoa (it's advertised at 60-120 AWA) but will it be worth it on those light wind days?  Bill Brock discussed this sail in another post within these forums and seems to like his.

Or do people see the S1 spinnaker and the genoa as not being mutually exclusive and it would be nice to have both (although budget does play a role here)!

Another option would be a Code 0 asymmetrical but this would involve adding a bowsprit.

Comments?
Chris
Eclipse #240
Thunder Bay, ON
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fatjohnz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatjohnz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2013 at 8:56am

I look back thru this thread and find many good comments which agree with what I've observed. I'll also say that I race phrf so I have laminate sails.
The first lapper I had made was not very powerful and I could not convince myself to drop the 150%. Last year though, I got a used lapper from a fellow Laser28 owner who is also a Doyle rep. This lapper is very powerful and the balance between the main and jib is very nice. Previous comments in the forum about pointing and handling apply.
I got a code0 designed to tack at the bow for the cases where I end up on a reach. We'll be putting it up for the first time today as a matter of fact.
sail fun!
js
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2013 at 1:21am
You tried the new sail today. Right? Lets hear the verdict!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatjohnz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2013 at 8:39am
The jury is still out ; -)
Its definitely a special purpose sail with specific attack angle. I mean if you try to sail too close to the wind, you lose the luff and if you sail too deep, the main will start to blanket.
When trimmed well, the apparent wind on the windex is a little forward of perpendicular. So its a reacher as advertised.
It covers the point of sail where you'd either have to ease a genoa to the point where its barely drawing or you're trying to hold a spinnaker with the pole all the way on the forestay. The code0 would eat that point of sail up.
We are sailing the 190nm alir.org regatta on the 25th so I hope the new sail sees some action. We are not carrying the 150% for this race.
Hope that helps,
john
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