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Should a L28 be my next boat??
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silversailor View Drop Down
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Joined: 03 July 2014
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    Posted: 27 July 2014 at 11:57am
I currently cruise/race a Hanse 370 on Lake Michigan.  Looking down the road, I expect that the Admiral and I will give up cruising (we are both 72) in 2-3 yrs.  When that happens I want to continue racing, both around the buoys and distance races. Wityh that in mind I have been looking at a variety of boats.  The out and out sport boats are a little too much for me.  It seems that the Laser 28 (and the S2 9.1) are boats that I should consider.I would sail PHRF, not class. I would appreciate your general thoughts on those choices and answers to the following:

1. Reqd Repairs.  What areas of the L28 are generally in need of careful inspection, repair and/or replacement?
2. Upgrades.  What upgrades should I look for or plan to make?
3. Sails.  What sail inventory do you recommend? Sailmaker? We have a lot of light air on Lake Michigan.
4. Availability.  If any of you are also "looking down the road" and anticipate selling your L28 in 2-3 yrs. let me know and provide details of your boat. Perhaps we can make your sale and my purchase easy for both of us.

Also, if you are a Lake Michigan/FL L28 owner I would appreciate the opportunity to see and sail on your boat.  I'm located in South Haven, MI but in Chicago area regularly as well as other Lake locations. For Dec-March I'm in the Bradenston/Sarasota area.

Thanks and I look forward to your responses.

Silversailor
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George S. View Drop Down
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Joined: 05 December 2002
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Points: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George S. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2014 at 2:36pm
Greetings Silversailor...

I have owned two L28's over the decades. In hindsight, I should have chartered a bigger boat to go cruising rather than the two-foot-itis that caused me to end up with a beautiful 33 footer that took us around Vancouver Island on the west coast of Canada. Last year I went back to the L28 after the cruiser just sat there and we were into cycling holidays abroad. I am three years your junior, but our plans are similar, to race until it gets boring (doubtful) or our bodies collapse (more likely).

The L28 is a big dinghy with a keel, not a furniture hauler like your Hanse370 and my old CS33. It responds quickly to wind pressure and requires an equal quick response to sail trim, especially main, and crew position when fully powered up in race conditions. Cruising you can leave the no.1 at home and happily go about your day with just the self-tailing lapper, no.3. We used to cruise our first L28 (Voila) with just the main at times and if I was really lazy and the breeze was decent.... just the lapper.

1. Regarding repairs, it depends on the state of the boat you get. They are 30 yrs old by now, but the kevlar in the weave and the closed mold construction techniques that were 'new' in 1985 have allowed most L28's to stand the test of time much better than most. Fresh water boats tend to be in better shape. The Bukh engines are dead simple and reliable. There are lots of posts here that deal with various issues, but if the engine runs and the gearbox works the first thing to check is if the prop hub is intact. It is a rubber hub that will wear with time. Put it in gear and try to turn the prop... If it slips, negotiate price. If it doesn't slip but shows 'wobbling' on the shaft, plan on near future rebuild/replace. I recently purchased three Gori props for owners here at $1000 each and they are of a better design that will outlast me for sure.

Check also for saildrive oil leakage from the prop shaft bearing while out of water. This will drip down below the zinc anode that is bolted to the leg in front of the prop. Saildrives are not available anymore so if any signs of water in leg (milky oil) budget for a re-build or walk away. It is usually the aluminum casing that erodes and is a simple fix with epoxy. Some L28's faced with this saildrive failure have removed the diesel engine and saildrive and installed an outboard on the transom. On the west coast here, several L28's have had rebuilt leg casings and are running fine, years later.

2. I am sailing WarBird virtually as I got her with original gear and winches. Minor replacements like a Harken mainsheet/traveller block, and misc. turning blocks. Your wallet and time will determine what you need/want. My son just purchased L28 hull no.123 from the original owner that had not had an extra hole drilled since new, and she was a perennial race winning boat in the PNW... all with original equipment. There is one modification Voila has done to the sail inventory that I believe has helped our PHRF competitiveness. The code 5 genoa (no.1) has been cut down to a code 4 so the sail can be sheeted tighter against the shrouds for better pointing against PHRF masthead rigs. The leech is cut away to miss the spreader tip allowing tighter sheeting. I am replacing the stock cabin top track soon so as to help the inboard sheeting further.

3. Sails are a personal preference. A sailmaker who knows the boat will be preferred. See blogs elsewhere here. Can't go wrong with Evolution. What Bill doesn't know about these boats isn't worth knowing.

4. L28's come & go intermittently but they are getting more popular with our age group that has been around the maypole a few times and know exactly what they need in a boat.... Speed. Simplicity. Quality. Comfort. Voila and WarBird sit on their trailers in our club's dry sail wharf that holds ten boats... our 2 Lasers, 4 Farr 30's, 2 Tiger10's, a 1D35 and a Riptide 35. Every boat there owes something to the pioneer techniques of the L28.... and the little L28 still has the best cruising accommodation. No wonder they are still popular.

Cheers,
George
WarBird
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frfletch View Drop Down
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Joined: 13 May 2008
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Points: 365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2014 at 1:07pm
Definitely buy a Laser if you can find one. They have tons of potential and getting that potential and harnessing it is challenging and rewarding. There is so much to learn about making this boat go, that it becomes an obsession once you have experienced what it can do. We have a sometimes coach. While we think we sail Voila well, when he is on the boat it is worth about 4 minutes/hour. That's when you get to see what your boat can do and the rest of sailing becomes trying to achieve it.
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silversailor View Drop Down
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Joined: 03 July 2014
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Points: 16 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silversailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2014 at 8:23pm
Thanks for the input and encouragement.  I would also appreciate addl comments on items 1, 2, 3 & 4 above.
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frfletch View Drop Down
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Joined: 13 May 2008
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Points: 365 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2014 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by silversailor silversailor wrote:

I currently cruise/race a Hanse 370 on Lake Michigan.  Looking down the road, I expect that the Admiral and I will give up cruising (we are both 72) in 2-3 yrs.  When that happens I want to continue racing, both around the buoys and distance races. Wityh that in mind I have been looking at a variety of boats.  The out and out sport boats are a little too much for me.  It seems that the Laser 28 (and the S2 9.1) are boats that I should consider.I would sail PHRF, not class. I would appreciate your general thoughts on those choices and answers to the following:1. Reqd Repairs.  What areas of the L28 are generally in need of careful inspection, repair and/or replacement?2. Upgrades.  What upgrades should I look for or plan to make?3. Sails.  What sail inventory do you recommend? Sailmaker? We have a lot of light air on Lake Michigan.4. Availability.  If any of you are also "looking down the road" and anticipate selling your L28 in 2-3 yrs. let me know and provide details of your boat. Perhaps we can make your sale and my purchase easy for both of us.Also, if you are a Lake Michigan/FL L28 owner I would appreciate the opportunity to see and sail on your boat.  I'm located in South Haven, MI but in Chicago area regularly as well as other Lake locations. For Dec-March I'm in the Bradenston/Sarasota area.Thanks and I look forward to your responses.Silversailor

1. Repairs depend on the boat. The Laser has a very robust hull, keel, and rudder, so most likely you will face more sprucing up things than actual repairs. However, those that require inspection are; the integrity of the keel grid's bond to the hull which originally is flanged and glued to the hull. Same applies to the structural glass ribs that run longitudinally to which the chain plates are held down via a 1/2" SS Navtec rod. The main bulkhead forward of that is glued to the cabin top and actually only acts as a stiffener, but still wants to be solidly in place. I had to re glue my starboard one and am planning to replace these bulkheads and tab them to the hull, but it is not critical as my glue job is holding. Rudder bearings don't want any wiggle, but not super critical. Other things for repair would be small or cosmetic. One other thing I would do on inspection of a old Laser. Bring a volt (multi-meter) with you and test for continuity between the center spline on the prop and the outer casing on the hub. If there is continuity between these, plan on $1,000 for a new Gory prop. Alternatively, the old prop can be re-built and modified to work for life if you have, or know a small machine shop that can follow my instructions.
2. Many (or most) boats have received upgrades. Those I consider as an immediate from the original Laser would be; replace the cabin top halyard winches and I suggest larger winches with self-tailors such as Andersen 18's (mine or 28's) or something like that. I like the original primaries and if serviced well find them pretty good. Because they are old, the self tailors may slip a bit, but that is correctable with a little epoxy and crushed walnut shell not used excessively to the jaws. When our halyards are up, we like using the cabin top winches as our primaries because it is a better position for the trimmer to apply his effort in getting the sail in when tacking and he is not as far to leeward when doing so. This complicates hoists in heavy airs, but we are working our way around that slowly. The original traveller is a grunt to operate. It was installed as a 2:1 and together with the friction in the small car it is terrible. The quick cheap fix is to terminate the traveller line at the car on the toggle that holds the mainsheet, and place a double block on the side of the cockpit to replace the single, and you have an instant 3:1. With lubrication, this will get you through. Many of us have purchased a length of the Harken mid-size flat track and mounted it on top of the old Shaefer track, then added a mid-sized car or windward sheeting car from Harken. We run 3:1, but Harken makes a 4:1. The 4:1 seems to have much friction in it and does not work as well as the 3:1 of old. For sure get rid of the SS lifelines and switch to dyneema. We use 5mm Dynex Dux. Same for the backstay (5mm Dynex Dux or dyneema 75). Then change out the backstay cascade from ss wire to all dyneema using a combination of 3/16 and 1/8 or the metric equivalent. When you make the new backstay, make it about 18" shorter than the original that was made for much less mast rake than we use today. Other things are just small hardware upgrades. I would recommend a 10:1(or similar) vang cascade arrangement with the adjusting lines double ended and held by cam cleats either side of the cabin top instead of wasting a clutch on them.
3. Sails; That discussion could go on for months and it is much a matter of personal preference, size and weight of crew you are likely to attract, and the wind and water conditions in which you sail. The one-design Laser sailors have optimized their sail design within the Laser one-design rules. I believe the original sailplan for the Laser is dated a bit. If I were starting from scratch, I would put a whip on the masthead crane and order a code 6 or even a code 7 mainsail. Code six will cost 3 points, code 7 will be 6 points and in our system each point is work about 5.24 seconds/hour. On the other hand, you get to carry this sail both upwind and down. I would not use a maximum Genoa as the one-design sailors do. It will not go to windward with the PHRF boats. Simply it will not do it. Either cut it down to a code 4 such that the leach trims inside the spreader tip and pull it in 5-6" inside the tip, or forget the overlapping genoa altogether and go to a maxi lapper. We use a code 4 genoa with a code 5 main. My damn main is 2008 and looks as good as when I bought it with a little annual maintenance, so I just can't justify changing it. When I do, I will go up in size. Bill has designed a wonderful lapper for the Laser. It is a powerful sail and easy to handle. It is maxed to class rules. It is not maxed to PHRF, but there are other restrictions. The first is that this sail is maximized at the top where in lighter airs it hangs up sometimes passing the mast when the top batten area will not pass through to complete the tack. Keep in mind that this sail was not made for light air, and in the 12-22 range for which it was designed it has no problem. But in the lower part of the sail, it misses the shroud by about 5-6" and therefore could come back a little further. So, while I cannot say from experience because we haven't tried it, I think that a maxi lapper (code 3 hitched to a code 6 or 7 main would provide a better time around a typical course and could be handled and tacked much more efficiently and economically than using a genoa. Also, the class spinnaker falls into the code 9 range and definitely attracts a big PHRF penalty of at least -12 points. In some PHRF environments it is -14 according to this forum. However, again this sail is not maximized to the code 9 and we have done this and raised the hoist as previously mentioned. As designed, the Laser sails to windward very easily to her rating, or better. Our PHRF rating environment is a bit weird because all boats were given a 10% higher rating number to provide some favour to older and lessor performing boats (long story) so we rate 141. We sail to windward to at least a 124 in our environment so we could justify piling on even more downwind sail area and take further penalty, but I have elected not to. We have built a sail maximized to code 9 and made it from .6 oz cloth from Contender. This materials is at least as strong as other .75 oz, and is treated with a very slippery and water repelling silicone surface. It's wonderful! Given your location, I think that Bill and Denise have the most experience with sails for the Laser and likely would design sails that are more fully cut than those of other lofts that are tending toward flatter sails. Even if you broke away from their standard cuts, as I'm suggesting, they are better clued in on how full the sails should be, where the draft in the sails is best placed, and what are the optimum luff curves given the expected forestay tension/sag and how achieving that will effect the mast prebend that determines the luff curve of the main. I'm sure my boat is not optimized in that way, and they can do this better than others with their experience in Lasers which is 30+ years.

4. Availability: There is a Laser that just hit the market in Vancouver. It is hull number 142, meaning that it was the second to the last hull built in North America. I know this boat to be in very good condition throughout, needs nothing and has all high-tech running rigging, and a decent and race able suit of class sails. It also has a new prop. Asking $24,000.

Good Luck!
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silversailor View Drop Down
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Joined: 03 July 2014
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Points: 16 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silversailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2014 at 7:04am
Fletch. Many thanks. That's exactly what I am looking for. I'll search for that Vancouver boat but if you have a link it would be appreciated.

Still looking for a Laser 28 on Lake Michigan that I can sail.
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Kentbrownlow View Drop Down
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Joined: 02 October 2012
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Points: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentbrownlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2014 at 2:19am
The Vancouver boat that fletch notes in his post is mine.
We've had it almost two years after being out of the sailing scene for about 18 years!
Only reason we are looking at moving is that there is another yacht on the market just now that rings more bells with the family as a racer / cruiser. Can't say enough good things about the Laser - it's a great boat and the local racing is competitive and a lot of fun. Here is the link to the craigslist posting:

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nvn/boa/4582858232.html

I'd be happy to answer any questions about it or send more pics if needed.
I understand it was a freshwater boat for most of its life.
I don't have a trailer for it.
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