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water in the oil?

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Seawolf View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 May 2012 at 10:01pm

Everything went back together fine, the cooling system; thermostat and housing cleaned, impellor replaced and hoses cleared out of junk. Replaced fuel filters and primed the fuel and cooling system. I set up a garden hose and bucket in the cockpit for the water intake and the engine fired immediately. (Temperatures was 40 degrees F)

 

I ran the motor for about 10 minutes at idle during that time I turned it off once to be sure the stop solenoid worked. Placed my hand on the engine, never got hot just a nice hand warmer. Saw where I was getting fuel leaks and water leaks, and tightened the connections a little.

 

After all that I shut down the motor and check the oil, the oil level never changed (about ¾ full between the marks) but it came out grayish! I also pulled the oil filer and saw the same grayish oil. That screams water in the oil, but before I panic I should check all possibilities;  I had the oil filter pulled and soaking in kerosene for a couple of days and then sat on the work bench for about a month, I did the same for the vacuum value on the oil cap and both the oil intake and the oil filter  port was open for a month, could enough condensation collected be a factor? Before I pulled the oil filter I did siphon about a quart of oil, the dipstick was still about ¾ full between the marks, so I didn’t bother topping it off. The temperature was cold, could that be a factor? In putting all the water hoses back together, could I have done something?

 

Other than finding the grayish oil, everything ran fine, however being on the trailer I couldn’t put a load on it and I didn’t rev it up. There was no irregualr smoke coming from the transom. When I asked the previous owner about the oil change last fall he stated there was no indication of water in the oil, hate to call him a lair.....

Not sure what to do now, I probably should drain the oil, maybe even pull the oil sump off.Suggestions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Layton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2012 at 10:55pm
headgasket is the culprit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2012 at 10:52am
I thinking the same, I am looking at the Buhk manual and it looks simple enough to pull the head (part 59 on page 32) and replace the gasket (part 4 on page 32). I am thinking I should also pull the oil sump (part 1 on page 34) to ensure I get all the contaiminated oil out.
Let me know if I am on the right track and if there is anything else I should be doing while in the process.
 
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2012 at 12:55pm
If it is the head gasket, and it has been leaking for a while, pulling the head may not be easy, particularly with the engine in the boat. Corrosion sticks things together. In trying to separate the head from the cylinder block, you will be tempted to use a wedge or large screw-driver with a hammer to break the head free. "DON'T!"
This will cause damage to both the milled surfaces of the head and the block. Below is a method that may be a little messy, but is a better way:

1. Remove the 4 nuts and washers that hold the head and cylinder block to the crank case.
2. Remove the injector nozzle from the head.
3. Using the flywheel, rotate until the piston is about 1" off TDC (top dead center). A screw-driver down the hole of the injector will tell you that you are off TDC.
4. Pour gear oil into the head through the hole left by the injector until it is full. Gear oil usually comes in a container with a small nozzle on it so that a funnel is not necessary. I suggest gear oil because if your piston rings have been compromised by a leak, the gear oil will not leak past a bad ring as easily as 15/40 engine oil.
5. Replace the injector nozzle.
6. Using the starter, turn the engine over once. When the piston moves up toward TDC it will lift the head off with no effort nor excitement, perhaps the cylinder block will come with it, but it doesn't matter. A couple of old towels laid in well under the engine will contain most of the oil.

The main cause for a head gasket to fail is over heating. It only takes one event. If this has happened, it may have caused corrosion to the rings as well which cause them to cease within the piston grooves and compromise compression. You will be lucky if this did not happen, but removing the cylinder block at this time to inspect the rings would be a good idea.

One other thing. If you know you had water in the oil resultant from a leaky water pump, I suggest a couple of oil changes before you get into the head removal, which unless you are a contortionist is a bitch. Question: How did you drain the oil? Did you use a vacuum pump through the dipstick, or did you drain from the drain plug in front of the engine. I ask this, because the drain plug is not at the very bottom of the sump and if there was previously water in the oil, you will not have removed all the liquid from the crankcase by draining at the plug. By using the vacuum method, the extension of the dipstick tube reaches further into the bottom of the crankcase, but is still not at the bottom. Either one will leave a little liquid in the case and it doesn't take much water to froth-up the oil. My suggestion is that you drain the oil at least one more time, but be sure that the engine is well warmed up so that any water is mixed the oil. Directly after engine shut-down, remove the oil by the vacuum method via the dipstick tube. The is the best method to get rid of water in oil, which otherwise will separate. Since the oil is lighter than the water, the water will always stay on the bottom of the case, out of the reach of normal draining methods. So.....only go after the head if you still have water after a couple of oil changes.

Good luck! :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Layton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2012 at 2:21pm
Nice post Frank!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2012 at 3:48pm
THanks for the post. I have also been talking to Keith and here is what he had to say;
 

Not unusual for water pump seals to leak eventually.

As water pump is direct drive and mounted above drive unit it gives

easy access for water to get into crankcase.  Suggest you look very closely at pump for

any signs of water.  Pump has drain holes around narrow part of the pump body where

mounting yoke is.  Check that these are clear and or clean with a toothpick etc.

Run engine and watch for any drops of water at these holes.  If water, replace pump seals (2) It takes very little water to grey the oil. It takes 2 to 4 oil changes and 5 minute runs to get all contaminated oil out.

 

If pump not leaking next possible problem is breach of head gasket or cracked

cylinder head.  Fingers crossed!!!!

So  I ran the engine again and I had no water leaking from the water pump. Keith then suggested taking the water pump apart to be sure I saw no water, then changing the oil to see if the problem would disappear, would take 4-5 oil changes to clean the water out. We also talked about the possibility of a crack cylinder head and blown gasket.  With that he suggested taking the value cover off and looking and feeling for a crack. I did this first and  found none.

 

I did notice a little gray oil on the bottom of the cylinder and a slight but constant drip of water coming off the port value spring. So I found my water leak, can't tell if it is from the cylinder or the gasket.

 

I am also in the process of taking the water pump off to double check, then I will put every thing back together. Run the engine to warm up the oil and suck the oil out. Then I will pull the cylinder off and see what the gasket looks like.

 

Mark

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2012 at 10:27pm
Okay. If you are not a contortionist, then you will have to become one. At 64 years of age, and damaged knees, back, shoulders, etc, I really "love" it down there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 10:54am

Just an update; I pulled the water pump housing  and checked for water, it was dry as a bone below the housing. So today I will remove the cylinder head. Another note, yesterday afternoon,  after putting the pump housing back together, I fired up the engine to warm it up for oil draining, it ran for a minute (water was coming out of the exhaust) and then it sputtered the died. I check and bled the fuel lines, they were fine, tried starting it, nothing, it was cold out so I put a little oil in the port for cold starting, Nothing. I was running out of time, so I put a charger on the battery and closed things up. I will see if I can start it out today, could enough water get into the oil to effect compression? If I don’t get it started, then I will proceed to drain what oil I can and remove the cylinder head.

PS - I trying to convince my wife that her small, nimble hands would be perfect for this kind of work, she's not buying into it...ideas?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Layton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 11:07am
The water gets into the engine via the failed head gasket. Then being the cylinder it gets past the rings and mixes with oil, resulting in grey oil. Be careful now because water can cause a hydraulic lock and split your piston or even blow the rings off the piston. Running it at this stage is dangerous. Drain the oil cold from the drain plug and start your head removal to avoid further damages
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 11:12am
Thanks for the timely warning. Proceeding directly to head removal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 12:16pm
Your symptoms have progressed to indicate that the rings are now frozen within their grooves and the compression is very little or nil, hence it won't start. If you have been running in only fresh water, it may be possible to take the rings out and clean them up and re install. If doing so, pay very, very close attention to ring orientation. First where the split of each ring aligns on the aluminum piston. Scribe the piston where the ring splits are. Next, make sure the rings go in in the same order top, middle, bottom. One is an oil distribution ring, the others are pure compression. Also, on some of their rings sets, one of those compression pistons has a small step in its edge. Make sure that piston does not get flipped upside down. Doing the forgoing is necessary to assure you have all the compression available from the rings and cylinder bore that you had before the problem arose. If you engine was running fine, and this was not a salt water situation, I think you can save what you have.

On the other hand, if you engine was starting to use oil, or some other symptom of worn rings/bore, then you must take the cylinder block out, hone the bore, and order a new ring set from Keith. You will be getting a new head gasket from him anyway, and a new cylinder gasket that goes where the cylinder block attaches to the crank case. You can buy a simple honing tool from your local auto supply store (Lordco, etc) and mount it in a drill motor with a minimum 3/8" chuck and slow speed. These honing stones are spring loaded to maintain contact with the bore. Progress the drill motor up and down within the bore very quickly to try to attain a cross-hatched pattern within the bore using lots of oil. Nice if you can support the cylinder within a large bucket or something to contain the oil that flies off the honing tool.

You are definitely in it now, but the result will be rewarding and you will know a lot more about your engine when done. We all congratulate your effort in this, particularly doing it in the boat. Are you a Yogi?

One more thing, and that is not to lose track of which valve lifter (push rod) goes where. One is for the exhaust the other for the intake. I suggest you wrap a piece of masking tape around one (say the exhaust side)and note each lifter's orientation in their housing so that they re assemble the same and provide the same lift to the valves they operate.

I assume you are working with a copy of the Bukh Workshop Manual which is downloadable from the net. It is a must for what you are getting into.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 12:20pm
By-the-way, was your boat once named Sorcery? If so, it was originally owned by Jim Paxton whom I was with yesterday and who still occasionally sales with me. He sold his boat to someone in the Okanagan, and thinks he heard that it ended up in Montana.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 2:47pm
The boat has been sea wolf since day one. Started it's career in Colorado, did a road trip to new jersey and went to the bahamas by way of ICW, after that trip the engine was rebuilt and returned to colorado at lake dillon for the last 12 years. Now as 3rd owner it will hopefully sail on Flathead Lake this year.
 
I am working with the Buhk manual (which must be a copy of a copy which was copied)  and advice of Keith plus your many great suggestions.
 
I have the side panals removed so the engine is pretty accessable. I have the oil drained and all the extra parts removed but the 4 nuts are seized, heading to the store for some liquid wrench.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 4:35pm
Well I have 3 of nuts off, including the bolt which came out with the lower starboard. But I see that it's double threaded and once I free up the nut it will thread back. The problem with the last nut is the upper port, and the injector(?), thing that the fuel line connects to, is in the way. THe manual does not help me on how to remove this. Help please. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 4:43pm
Give me your phone number. Having lunch at the moment but will be back on boat by 2:00 pm pst to visualize the problem then call you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Layton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 5:53pm
you have to remove the complete injector to remove that nut, see the 2 nuts holding the injector in place?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 6:08pm
I did that but the injector didn't want to come out, not wanting to force something that I didn't understand, I abandon that idea. Now, with your sugestion I will try it with more conviction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 6:34pm
ok, it didn't take much conviction. the injector came off easy and now i will fill it up with gear oil and frank's method.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seawolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2012 at 11:25pm

well the cylinder is off, frank's idea of using gear oil helped pop things loose but it took a little muscle to slide the cylinder off the remaining two bolts, one of the bolts (on air intake side) was stubborn and didn't want to let the head slide off. Lots of liquid wrench to lube things up and leverage.

 

Now it is in my shop waiting to be dissembled. I am looking at this cylinder head and the gasket and searching for any telltale signs that the gasket was the culprit, I don't see anything obvious. The only signs I have been able to grasp is on the engine block the lower starboard (exhaust side) there was a bunch of gasket material accumulated in one of the water ports (?) and when I turned the starter over the gear oil exited out the same area . This is also the same side where I saw water dripping from the piston spring. So if I use these clues I could say that the gasket was comprised by the exhaust elbow.

 

Now Keith at Crinmar has given me best case and worst case scenarios. We have already moved beyond best case, and worst case would be a cracked head. I am diligently looking around the value springs (where Keith says I would find such crack) and I don’t really see anything. There are spots where the paint has peeled off and with some imagination I could think I see a crack between the exhaust and intake ports. But can I be sure so I can rule this out?

 

Another clue I am looking at is; the exhaust seems to have a good buildup of carbon, meaning if a take a screw driver I can flake off bits of carbon. Excessive or normal?

 

 

Your thoughts? And thanks for all your comments to date, it helps keep the anxiety down.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frfletch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2012 at 1:42am
How are the milled faces of the block and the head in the area surrounding the cooling ports. I have seen the corrosion from the cooling ports spread out under the gasket and possibly breach through. You will notice that the contact area for the gasket to achieve its seal is not great in some areas. If the pitting gets in underneath the gasket, it will have the same effect as the gasket failing. If you send me your email address, I will show you some detail photos of what I am talking about. This may require some milling of the surfaces to assure that the gasket "can" do its job. You have not mentioned this, however, so perhaps your surfaces are sound.

You mentioned gasket material in one of the cooling ports in the cylinder on the exhaust (port) side. What kind of gasket material is that. I think the gasket at the bottom of the cylinder is a very thin mylar materials, or something similar. Was it that?

The carbon build-up could be from worn seating of the exhaust valve. Is that where you saw it?

How does the area of the head look where the cooling water enters the head. There is a fitting there with a hose nipple on it that attaches. When removed, is there a lot of rust in there? Is there still plenty of material in that area for the gasket of that fitting to seal?

Were any of the cooling ports blocked it either the cylinder or head?

I don't know how to check for a crack. I think the professionals do it by a controlled heating process and black dye. Perhaps Keith can explain. You could try using black fabric dye in a stock pot over the stove and bringing it up to a boil. On removing and cooling, wiping the faces clean may reveal a crack if there is one particularly with the use of a magnifying glass. Unless the head was really overheated, I doubt it is cracked. Mine got so hot that the paint on the outside on the exhaust side of the head and cylinder turned black, but no crack.

Email address?
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