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update laser28 |
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 Topic: update laser28Posted: 09 November 2002 at 5:13pm |
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more and more , since we really only have 2 onedesign fleets left,(Ottawa and Montreal)laser 28's are being fitted with non dacron sails where the clas rule don't allow them. the dacron main and lapper are just fine and probably no different in performance than the kevlar ones,initially, but since most other laser28's racing phrf or similar are more likely to replace the ancient dacron stuff with the more exciting coloured ones , we are excluding these boats from any open regattas the class might schedule and shooting ourselves in the foot in the process. the kevlar sails will last longer because dacron looses its filler after the first blow and its downhill from there. One design classes must modernize from time to time and without a current builder - enough said. should there be any agreement on this subject,the class could negotiate a favourable price with a reputable sailmaker - especially this time of year. think about it!
dick steffen
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Posted: 10 November 2002 at 12:00pm |
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Dick: The meaning of your post is not completely clear. Are you advocating a change in the class rules to allow the unrestricted use of aramid reinforced sails? The reason for limiting them has been to reduce the cost of level racing. Are you arguing that there is no longer a cost differential or that there are some mainly PHRF racing boats who would race class if they were allowed.
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Posted: 10 November 2002 at 10:36pm |
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I read in Dick's posting that non-Dacron sails may be at the point of being better value over time and should be considered eligible through a class rule change. I have been wrestling with the pros and cons of getting new sails for my mostly PHRF Toronto based boat. The advice I have most consistently received is that class-legal dacron sails are certainly no slower than more exotic sails. Aramid, tape drive, D4, 3DL, composite, Pentex, etc sails can be more durable for a given weight and, based on some quotes, are not much more expensive over a few seasons. Obviously, you can still buy overpriced superlight crap with a bad shape as well! My only reason to consider a dacron panelled main is for a potential once a year regatta at CORK....hmmm. How many boats outside of the active Level fleets don't play at these regattas because they have non-class sails?
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 7:40pm |
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This letter concerning the kevlar sails issue was sent to me (& others) by Dave Black, Toronto Fleet Captain. Because I believe that he makes a very good case I am taking the liberty of posting it here for others to read. I hope that this is OK, Dave?
"I see several problems with going the Kevlar main route, in my opinion. Also note that I am obviously not a sail maker and do not have the expertise that currently exists in the class. Now that I have gotten all the disclaimers out of the way,I feel however, as an owner, I have a right to make a fool of myself, so here goes!
Once door is open - Big cost to shut it
If we go down this road there will be no turning back. We have already seen when the door is opened a crack, you will have a very difficult time stopping anyone from using it (not just those currently on the sideline), particularly those people pushing the idea. They are more than likely to invest in a Kevlar main - then what? I find it very hard to believe that if the door is closed in a year, these people will give up using a sail with years of service left in it and buy a new one design sail - not going to happen. If we believe that none of the current one design boats will take the opportunity to supposedly buy a small competitive advantage we are being naive. All it will take is for one competitive boat to buy one, and then some others will believe they have to as well to compete. We have already seen that some sail makers will jump all over this business opportunity In other words I think we will shut the door on many current active participants other than those currently on the sidelines, if we try to go back to Dacron mains.
How many currently on sidelines and why
Just how many boats are out there with Kevlar mains and will they indeed join us if we relax the rules, for a year or otherwise? There is currently one boat on Lake Ontario that I know of that has a Kevlar main and in their own words in September, will never go back to racing one design against Montreal or Ottawa fleets. In other words any efforts to get this boat back are a waste of time. All of the Colorado boats are reportedly one design so there will be no gains there. There were a couple of boats in the Chicago NOOD and there are reportedly boats in the Chesapeake that have Kevlar mains as well. However the Chesapeake boats are extensively modified in other areas as well and when the opportunity was there for them to sail against the one design fleet at Marblehead, not one of them made the trip up. How many boats are there in Montreal and Ottawa that have Kevlar mains?
Those boats who currently have Kevlar mains have already shown their preference not to race one design (see "PHRF advantages" and "Participation problem's")
PHRF advantage of Kevlar main
I have heard the argument that we are at a disadvantage when racing PHRF. This indicates a short term view or a misunderstanding about how PHRF works in theory and how it works in practice.
If we were to adopt Kevlar mains and there turned out to be a significant advantage to it long term (see Cost of development), then the improved results that PHRF accumulates will indicate that the rating is too high and our rating will be lowered. PHRF works on the assumption that they are measuring the performance potential of the boat only, when they use the results, because a large number of results supposedly eliminates the human factor (ya, right!). For those of you who believe the results will go unnoticed, note that the rating has gone from 129 when I bought my boat to the current L.O. PHRF rating of 123.
Some people believe this lower number was attained by boats that were not raced one design (not my own belief personally - I believe this number came about because of increased local one design activity and the improvements in boat speed that came about with Kevlar genoa's). I would suggest if this were a significant problem and the reason some boats believe they need a Kevlar main, we could try to approach PHRF to get a PHRF OD (one design) rating. This would enable those that race PHRF to have a rating that reflects the configuration that they actually sail in. It is currently done for J105's. When they race in their one design configuration (Dacron main, Mylar 100% jib on roller furler and supposedly class weight limit) they have a rating of 93. If they choose to sail in "PHRF configuration" (really no such thing) with 153% genoa and unlimited materials for all sails, and unlimited number of sails, they are assigned a rating of 78."
Ultimately I believe competitiveness under PHRF is a red herring. As a personal observation, I believe that Laser 28's have been successful at every PHRF rating. The million dollar question is "Is the rating fair?". If we believe that the boats should be more successful than average because Laser 28 sailors are better than average, and should win more races than the average class (we probably all like to believe that!) then we are looking for something that PHRF by it's very definition cannot provide. THAT IS WHY WE RACE ONE DESIGN WHENEVER WE GET THE OPPORTUNITY!!!
Cost of development
Currently, in my opinion, all the active sail makers in the class, have competitive Dacron mainsail designs. These mainsails last longer than their competitive shape, but Kevlar mains lose their competitive shape as well. What has not been considered is the cost of development which of course is paid for by the owners. A new design will be required and this will naturally bring about fairly rapid progress in shapes to match rig etc as well as complementary changes in rig set-up (and may ultimately change the optimum genoa shape, range etc. - the trickle down effect of technology changes is significant). It is my personal belief that Kevlar mains will eventually prove to be significantly faster, and even if this happens overnight, the rate of progress will be significantly higher for the first number of seasons than the quite gradual evolutionary improvements we have seen with our current mainsails. I don't believe for a minute that this will give us better one design racing. We will have more expensive mainsails whose shape will last longer, but whose shape may not be competitive the next season! If we still have the same number of boats left racing when this development slows down ( a very big if in my opinion) will we have better racing or increased participation? I think not.
Participation problems
I would be a very happy camper if I thought the solution to participation problems could be solved by permitting a change in allowable materials. If only that were indeed the problem!
In my opinion, the Laser 28's out there that are not racing one design are not participating for the following reasons:
1. Don't have the time
2. Don't believe they have the money to race competitively
3. Cannot find consistent crew
4. Don't believe they will enjoy themselves if they do not do well and/or don't feel ready to compete
If the first 3 reasons apply then these boats are probably not doing much racing of any kind and changing allowable materials is not going to help. Unfortunately the fourth reason is a lot more widespread than people will care to admit and is a challenge every one design class faces.
In order to for any one design class to have sustainable participation the vast majority of participants (or all at one time or another!) will have to accept the following:
A) Currently there are x number of people who are able to get more boat speed out of a sailboat than my team/myself
or
B) currently there are x number of people who are able to get around the course in a more consistent or intelligent fashion than my team/myself
or both A) and B)!
If people are willing to accept this, then they deserve a class that limits the challenge as much as possible to only the above! We have to work to limit the expense and time required and I think the proposed change will do the opposite.
People who will race PHRF as opposed to one design to avoid the above will not do any better in a deep PHRF class than in a one design fleet, but it will be easier to rationalize without confronting the above. These same people will not be long term one design participants.
If I am way off base with the above, or missed the point entirely, let me know and I will give it another (hopefully briefer) attempt! |
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Posted: 13 November 2002 at 2:15pm |
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As someone in the bus. of "optimizing" sailboats and having done so to a Laser 28 I thought I would add some input on this issue. First off, I believe Dick Steffan does make a valid point regarding the class rules being somewhat restrcitve when it comes to the boat setup. Having said that, I do not really believe that allowing Kevlar mains will see an increase in boats suddenly coming out to race class. I do however see more Laser 28 owners joining the class association if it better represented more modern practices, and the reality in todays day and age - Laminated sails are here to stay - If you are racing PHRF and have a like minded sail inventory - why join a class that still mandates the use of Dacron ? On the Laser 28 we had here - we did the following "non class conforming mods" Installed spin pole track with a car to have a permanently engaged spin. pole system (more effective at mark roundings) Installed custom halyard exits on the mast to allow for halyard "bumping" (again faster at mark roundings and makes life easier in the back of the boat) Installed a Spinlock forestay adjuster turnbuckle (easy way to adjust headstay tension between races without needing tools) Went to a laminated sail inventory, that was size optimized for the PHRF system - lighter, and much more effective to de-power in a breeze, also great acceleration out of tacks and puffs due to the minimal stretch of Laminates. After having done all of the above we raced the boat for a few years before it was sold into our local fleet. Afterwards one of our crew missed the Laser so much, he bought one - Number Cruncher - a boat that is completely class conforming - We have now raced on the boat for the fall series, and often against the former above mention PHRF "optimized" Laser - The difference ? Speed wise - next to nothing with maybe a slight edge to the "mod" boat- both boats go out and have very strong, level racing - the better sailed boat will win. However when it comes to comfor and ease of use - hands down the more "optimized" Laser is far easier to use, and much easier to race with fewer costly mistakes. From my perspective the cost difference between laminated sails and premium racing Dacron's is getting smaller all the time and a less restrictive set of class rules will, from my perspective, increase class membership, this in turn, will hopefully increase class racing. Obviously I have a "bias" being in the bus. however I would also like to point put that I have nothing against "Racing Dacron Mains" - They are still one of the most cost effective performace solutions on many boats, and in fact some of the modern day Dacron cloth's (like the D/P HTP series) offer great performance, however I could easily upgrade someone into a laminted main from this material for less the $ 200 - Is that really a huge difference ? |
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Napadelis
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Posted: 13 November 2002 at 3:22pm |
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the star class association had recently debated the merits of laminated sails vs. dacron. the president of the class assoc. had a few sails made of mylar and a handful of sailors tested these sails. performance remained the same, durability remained the same, cost went way up. mark reynolds, a quantum sailmaker and star champion, went so far as to post some comments on the star class site and quantum site cautioning the fleet against jumping into the laminate world too quickly. i've taken the liberty of posting his letter below. Lamiated Sails and Carbon Masts I've read two articles lately concerning laminated sails, and one also talked about carbon masts, where the authors were misinformed. I knew what I read was pretty far off the mark (often 180 degrees!) but I talked to the sailcloth manufactures, sailmakers, sailors in the Finn class and Bill Buchan! and decided I should write up some of the information I found along with my experience and opinions on the subject.
Laminated sails on carbon masts might look cool and modern to some, but it would be a mistake for the Class to move this type of rig too quickly. Right now laminated sails for the Star would be more expensive and unless a good method is found to control the durability, not as long lasting as the material we presently use. Carbon masts would be a lot more expensive than the masts we presently use, making the total package of laminated sails and carbon spars a very expensive proposition.
The Star Class has a tradition of innovation and refinement but only has moved to new materials when they have proved absolutely beneficial to the Class. We have not usually been the first to make the move. We didn't go to aluminum masts or glass hulls until after many other classes had done so and we were sure that it was the way to go.
The Finn class is really the only Olympic class we can look at who has allowed laminates and carbon masts and and the price for the small un-stayed Finn mast is now higher than our current fully rigged Star mast (and they do still break as well). The laminated sails must be light to have enough stretch but the polyester film (Mylar) used in laminated sails shrinks and distorts so now Finn sails are often replaced 4 times as often as their Dacron predecessors. This would be a disaster for our class! Fredrick Loof, the bronze medalist, used over 35 sails in 2000.
The Snipe class now allows laminates (very strictly controlled as to legal fabrics) for the jibs and durability has been a problem. As a result most Snipe sailors are going back to Dacron.
The laminated fabric cost varies greatly from the less expensive low fiber count/more Mylar sandwiched fabrics to the very expensive Cuban fiber fabric. The higher fabric cost and more intricate construction would certainly increase the prices quite a bit. I ran some prices from our Quantum "big boat" pricing program and this is what I got compared to our current cross-cut Dacron Star sail prices.
Tri-radial construction with Pentex fabric +55%
Tri-radial construction Kevlar fabric + 90%
With one-design manufacturing efficiency the prices should be slightly lower but still a lot more expensive than what we use now. The durability question isn't so clear but it's possible that the life of laminated sails would be no longer than those made of the material we presently use, probably less, and when a laminated sail goes bad you throw it in the dumpster. They do not make good second hand sails.
My feeling is still that use of carbon fiber and laminated sails (maybe even with carbon in them) are probably in our future but for now we should keep an eye for successful use elsewhere first, start doing some testing and make the move when it's clear that it's a better value than what we have now.
*A little educational comment about the different materials used in laminated sails:
What is normally called a "Mylar" sail really should be called a laminated sail or something similar. Mylar is Dupont's trade name for polyester film. It is just a solid plastic film, usually clear. Our current windows are made of polyester film which may or may not be Dupont Mylar. Pretty much all laminated sails are made with polyester film on one or both sides (hence the misnomer Mylar) and either polyester, Pentex, aramid (Kevlar is Dupont's aramid) or now carbon yarns or fibers laminated to the film. Sometimes also a mix of the above fibers are used.
Mark Reynolds |
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Bob Magtanong
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Posted: 13 November 2002 at 6:14pm |
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Bob, Thank you for the information from Mark and the Star class - it made for some interesting reading. You neglected to mention your personal thoughts on the issue of Dacron vs. Laminated - unless the use of that article was in oppsition to laminated sails. My comments is that the Star and the Laser 28 are very different animals - Much as Mr. Steffan has suggested there are few "active" Laser 28 fleets these days - the majority of the Laser 28's are racing PHRF. Most Class Associations these days have evolved to better represent what the majority of the boats are doing - I think the question at hand is the issue of Dacron vs. Laminates - even in the Star class the general consensus is that the speed potential is fairly equal, and price for laminates can vary - Carbon and Cuben Fibre are still very expensive, however laminates sails made up of fill fibres such as Pentex, Twaron, Technora, and Kevlar blends can be very cost effective, lighter, and offer reasoanble longevity. I have also noted that most serious "race" programs, including those using "dacron" tend to replace the sails long before the material suffers from long term fatigue. In short, it really does not seem to be a huge difference going one way or the other - more one of personal preference, and possibly finance - either way I feel the class would be better off supporting both options. |
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Napadelis
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Posted: 14 November 2002 at 12:11pm |
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right now, especially in central Canada, we can get a decent price on one-design sails by virtue of the fact that there is class support for them. if u open up materials allowed, how many sailors will go with the same materials? i predict that once sailors start to move away from dacron mains and pay up for various laminate mains, the cost will increase for both. sailmakers will justifiy higher prices by saying that the economies of scale no longer exist because not all laser 28 sailors are using the same materials. custom work is always more expensive. one of the fringe benefits to one design sailing is that class associations can help keep a lid on costs. obviously, the best thing about one design racing is a level playing field, which i will miss since i'm moving from a great one-design fleet in Montreal to PHRF racing in Toronto, that is unless the Toronto sailors want to get back to some good, honest one-design racing (hint, hint). now having said that i'm in favour of tight class controls, that's not to say that i'm not in favour of evolution for the betterment of the class. if some improvements can be made i'm all for it, provided that they are proven to be beneficial to me (not some manufacturer or sailmaker) and they won't cause a cheque-book war to break out. |
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Bob Magtanong
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Posted: 14 November 2002 at 2:45pm |
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A reasonable compromise may be to have material weight restrictions on the cloth and allow both types of sails to compete. To reiterate my humble opinion, dacron sails are fast, but they blow out relatively quickly if you are on a really competitive program and get seriously thrashed racing in heavy air (Please tell me I am wrong!). Serious campaigners in fleets like J24 (Dacron only mains) will replace their sails for every major regatta. 2 yr old sails are not competitive in that fleet. Ultralight composite sails will also have a short life and are not what I am interested in. The "price is no object" crowd can have them. I am in favour of using composites for "shape that lasts" (to steal a sailmaker's tag line). My experience with big boat racing has also shown me that modern composites are easier to depower (observed by Rudy above) as you can maintain a half luff bubble in the sail without flogging and drive off of the leech. Apparently this is a function of less stretch in the composite. To summarize, I currently have class legal sails that are getting blown out. When I replace them I would like to have the option to choose dacron (proven class shape/speed and less cost) or a composite (possible better long term shape retention/value). From my j24 experience, there will always be a small group that purchases new sails annually as part of a competitive arms race whatever the material is. Much like new "shaped" skis have found acceptance on the ski hills, I believe that composite sails have evolved from expensive throw aways to reasonable mainstream alternatives. |
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Posted: 14 November 2002 at 3:18pm |
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Bob, Thanks for providing your input - I would like to clarify a few points regarding class sails and "economics" of the sail making bus. Typicall North, Hood, and more recently Quantum (great job by Quantum Quebec) have been the major players for "class" sails with the Laser 28 - Every serious "class" race main will be built from a "racing dacron" often referred to as hi-modulus dacron. These cloths will be manufactired by either Dimension Polyant, Contender, or Bainbridge - who will also set the prices for this cloth, in a variety of different weights - When a sail maker purchases this cloth, they are given no "special deal" simply because said roll is destined to a specific class. In other words XYZ Sails in Toronto will pay the same for DP HTP 260 be if for a J/24 class jib or a Laser 28 class jib. The next major factor in pricing results from the manufcaturing costs - labor, parts used (i.e. batten type, batten pocket type, bolt rope type, cleat type, etc,etc) also the method of construction, etc,etc are all variables in the actual sail cost. After that will come the "profit" portion of the sail - At this point a sailmaker may be willing to reduce the level of profit to a certain class as they see enough volume to justify a lesser return due to a greater demand. However once a price point has been determined then in true "class" sails this price becomes locked in - subject to fall discounts, etc,etc - The reason for this is that if different boats in the same class were paying different prices, the system would break down fairly quickly - As a result, most class sails are reasonably priced, however I can also guarantee that if you were to approach another loft that was not active in that class or were after some "PHRF" sails - you would find that you would likely get a better deal then the "class pricing" - That is simply the way things work in the sailmaking bus. these days. Also "class royalties" and advertising fees are often built in to class sails pricing to further increase the costs. In short, I think you will find that most sailmakers compete very hard to sell you sails - The old game of "give me three more orders and I will give you an extra 5% discount" is just that - a game. At present laminates are more expensive, and Dacron still offers better longevity - However the price, performance and longevity of laminated sails continues to become more attractive each and every month. Down the road do not be surprised if racing Dacron becomes a "speciality" fabric that may well be more costly then laminates. |
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Napadelis
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Posted: 14 November 2002 at 4:12pm |
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rudy, down the road, i do expect dacron to be a thing of the past. but, for the here and now, the lofts in central Canada have regular class business to keep costs down and, as you've said, "laminates are more expensive, and Dacron still offers better longevity". why would u want to change? once the laminates come down in price and demonstrate some form of longevity, then let's re-visit the issue. i said earlier, i'm in favour of evolution, so long as it benefits the class and me. |
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Bob Magtanong
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Posted: 14 November 2002 at 4:30pm |
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Re: Longevity... Will sails of similar weight of dacron weave cloth outlast a similar weight quality laminate sail? By longevity, I mean will it maintain reasonable racing shape characteristics. My understanding is that the early days of "Saran Wrap" mylar delamination are now past with more durable products like Q-Fusion and the like. |
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Posted: 14 November 2002 at 9:51pm |
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Bob, I appreciate your comments, and I am not suggesting that I personally want to "change" things - My goal here is to provide information so that boat owners have the opportunity to decide what sails best work for them, and hopefully the class can support whatever direction a boat owner elects to follow - be it dacron or laminate. To suggest that laminates sails are hugely more expensive and much less durable is no longer true - Laminated sails are an effective option for many racers - hence the recent popularity on race courses nationwide - Imagine if the class still mandated a Dacron genoa ? At some point this class will need to evolve. The Laser 28 is an amazing machine - it will continue to be one of the best boats ever in the under 30' range - A modern up to date class association will remian strong and vibrant if it can meet the needs of sailors everyhwere - not just class. Keep in mind, even if laminates are allowed you would be free to purchase Dacron mains and well sailed will still be winning races. |
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Posted: 16 November 2002 at 1:17pm |
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I missed a few paragraphs of Dave Black's letter when I posted it earlier |
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Posted: 22 September 2006 at 8:53pm |
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Hi all I am sure I will open a can of worm... However this discussion is almost 4 years old and we have seen better laminated sails since 2002. I have a hard time figuring out why we can collectively make a case for laminated sails for the genoa but not the main...unless cost difference if significant. I am currently using class legal sails but will change them shortly. I want a LONG lasting mainsail at a reasonable price, should I be looking for a laminated sail. Is there such a price difference ? Does anyone have personal use of a laminated mail sail and could be in an position to express an opinion based on a recent experience ? The way I see this, a dacron main is probably competitive for a 2-3 years at most... not sure laminated would be more expensive. Comments welcome! André
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Posted: 23 September 2006 at 3:52pm |
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This season, I replaced my 4 or 5 year old class main with a kevlar laminate main. I went with kevlar for a few reasons: there are no other Laser 28s in my area; I wanted to try it; I got a great deal (my neighbor is a sail maker ), so cost was not really a factor. My old main was pretty old, so it is hard to make a valid performance comparison, but the kevlar main seems very fast. The most obviuos difference is that it is a lot lighter, which makes it a lot easier for me and my (small) wife to roll up when we go out with the kids. I can't say much about durability yet, but nearing the end of our first season, it looks as good as new.
I would love to race one design, but there simply are no other Laser 28s around to race against. I am in Boston, so the nearest one design fleet is in Quebec. If I had the time to travel that far, and I don't, I would have to buy a tow vehicle. So for me, the only practical choice, if I want to race one design, is to buy a J24 or a J105 - so I race my Laser PHRF. It's not as fun as one design, but its still fun, and we are very competive, as long as the water is relatively flat. When the waves get up, we have a hard time hanging with the bigger boats up wind. So the bottom line is, I am not going to race one design, whether I can use my non-class main or not. I'll let you know in another season how the kevlar main holds up. |
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Posted: 25 September 2006 at 5:06pm |
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This is an issue that I have been thinking about for quite some time. Here are my thoughts:
1. Cost: I must strongly disagree with statements made about build quality. I have talked at great length to my sail rep. and he assures me that the laminate sails will hold better shape for a longer period of time than the Dacron sails they make will. He said that I could expect 7 years of competitive club racing with a new laminate sail, especially with a taffeta coating for durability. The Dacron sail may last longer but will lose its shape much sooner than the laminate. I was quoted both and there was less than $200 US difference between the two. I truly believe for racing, the laminate is the best value since I will be able to use it 7 years. If I were purchasing a Dacron, I would replace it sooner. 2. Revitalizing/establishing fleets: I am part of the newly formed fleet in Sheboygan, WI. Here we have reclaimed boats that were raced PHRF until we acquired them. All are class legal with one exception; all five boats had laminate sails. Since these laminate sails still have life in them, it would seem illogical to not allow their use in a newly formed fleet. Imagine if we said "NO" to these boats. Then we would not have a new fleet at all. Simply put, our newest boat owners cannot afford to purchase new sails this year to comply. Not allowing laminates may not kill existing fleets, but it certainly diminishes the chances of revitalizing them or establishing new ones. 3. Performance: A few of us in our fleet do have Dacron sails too. We will still use them, but there is no advantage. Some days the Dacron boats win, other times the laminate boats win. The material has never been the deciding factor to our races; starts, boat handling, and smart tactics win races. 4. Class Participation: I have thought about brining my boat and her crew to the races in Canada. Does this issue affect my choice? Absolutely. Furthermore, if we find our Sheboygan Fleet growing and active in a year or two, would we like to have a class event? Yes. Allowing laminate mainsails would go along way to making this happen. 5. Summary: Cost is no longer an issue. Build quality is no longer an issue. It is good economic sense for me to buy a laminate mainsail for racing. If we want to keep Dacron as the class rule, so be it. But I believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot on this one. Regards, Scott -- Scott Jelinek Sheboygan Fleet Captain Skipper Eclipse |
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Posted: 26 September 2006 at 2:51pm |
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Food for thought... The cost of a laminated mainsail for a melges 24 (60 % larger than a Laser 28 mainsail) is 3 000 US$. Something must be wrong with the price of Dacron... |
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fatjohnz
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Joined: 05 August 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 304 |
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Posted: 27 September 2006 at 9:41am |
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A couple of comments from a new owner of a Laser 28 which I just purchased last month. I'm very excited to learn to race the boat after several years of seaching for a boat in my price range and location. My boat is not class legal. It has a mylar main and a suite of mylar genoas. Oh , yea, and there is no shaving sink the in the bathroom. So these deviations prevent my participation in the 'members' section of the website and in Laser28 events. I really like Scott's approach which encourages head-to-head Laser28 racing eventhough they are not class legal. I currently race the Merit25, which has no class, and we race head-to-head regardless of modifications. As far as I can tell, better boat handling and trimming techniques are a greater factor than anything else. I hope not to offend any class members. I have great respect for those boats that are racing one design class events. As a newbie from NY however, I'd be interested in finding a Laser28 event that I could race in. |
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the freak flag is flying
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Chris Ross
Skipper 
Joined: 16 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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Posted: 10 October 2006 at 1:07pm |
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I think the likelyhood of laser 28 fleets forming in the future will only decrease (because the number of boats out there will only go down) we should do everything we can to encourage participation. There have been some interesting points on both sides.... but at the end of the day what is important? All of the Sheboygan boats have composite mains (3DL, UK tape drive, Quantum fusion) they all vary in the cut as well as materials. I'm sure they would fail the girth measurements as well as the material rule. We still managed to have a really good time racing eachother, And, it seems to me that decisions made during the race (which side to play ect ect) had a much larger impact on boatspeed than which main was used. There is a 6th boat located near our 5 boat fleet that races with a 5 year old dacron quantum main. He has owned that boat since 85 and he has a gear that our fleet hasn't discovered yet. It just doesn't seem to matter much at this point what the mains are made of...... at least for us. What matters is getting as many boats as possible racing against eachother. The laser is a great boat. You can't buy a better boat for the dollar under 30 feet. Lets just race them and see what comes of it. If a fleet develops with a boat that seems to be dominating, do what other one design fleets do and trade boats between the races, and if an advantage is actually discovered then we will actually have something to talk about. Until then, let's just focus on optimizing participation. |
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Chris Ross
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. I have corrected this now. My own 2 cents worth on this issue. I don't know the answer. I would go quite a way to accomodate the PHRF boats if they will travel to support some regional regattas, however this seems unlikely. For the time being the durability and cost of the newer laminated mains remains the key issue. Judging by the present performance of the first generation of aramid reinforced genoas it does not seem to have improved beyond a reasonable doubt yet. Thanks Bob for adding Mark Reynolds' viewpoint it was most interesting.