Lapper vs 155 genoa

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   We are the only Laser on the gulf cost of Florida.  Winds average around 8-kts. We’ve been sailing with a north 3DL 155% and rate 132 PHRF.  Our fleet includes j27s, j30s, j29MHOBs, several S-2 9.1’s and a few other boats.  The J-30 and S-2s all rate 132 as well.  Races are typically WL but sometimes have reaches.

If we change our rating certificate to only use the lapper, we can gain up to 12-sec per mile. I worry the lapper would be too small for the lighter winds but the local sail maker (North) thinks the boat would perform reasonably well with a lapper specifically designed for light air.  Under this scenario we would carry two lappers – one for light and one for heavy.  

Pros:  easier to sail, cheaper sails, rating advantage when the wind builds.
Cons: slower in light wind.

So, will the speed hit be offset by the rating gain?  Any advice?

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khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Lapper vs 155 genoa Posted: 09 June 2006 at 10:36am
	We are the only Laser on the gulf cost of Florida. Winds average around 8-kts. We’ve been sailing with a north 3DL 155% and rate 132 PHRF. Our fleet includes j27s, j30s, j29MHOBs, several S-2 9.1’s and a few other boats. The J-30 and S-2s all rate 132 as well. Races are typically WL but sometimes have reaches. If we change our rating certificate to only use the lapper, we can gain up to 12-sec per mile. I worry the lapper would be too small for the lighter winds but the local sail maker (North) thinks the boat would perform reasonably well with a lapper specifically designed for light air. Under this scenario we would carry two lappers – one for light and one for heavy. Pros: easier to sail, cheaper sails, rating advantage when the wind builds. Cons: slower in light wind. So, will the speed hit be offset by the rating gain? Any advice?

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 June 2006 at 5:19pm
	I would go for it with a 12/sec per mile phrf gain. the lappers can be built with a large roach and light battens that will most likely do just as well as the 155. You still get to keep your ODC spinnaker pole and spinnaker. You might be a tad bit slower upwind but no penalty for downwind. I'd go for it.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 June 2006 at 11:41am
	If you do go for the change, please let us know how it goes.

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 June 2006 at 7:17pm
	We had a fun race last week that didn't count toward series scores. So we tried it with our lightly used 3-DL lapper in 8-10kts of wind. We had an excellent start were third around the weather mark. But there were two long reaches and we ended up finishing 9th. If we add the 12-seconds per mile we would have finished fourth. Based on this i'm inclined to stay with the 155. With a good start we've never had any probalem staying in the top three if not winning outright. What really hurt, and i did not count on, is sailing in the back of the fleet often means sailing in dirty air even if the boat who just taked on you owes you time.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 July 2006 at 5:49am
	We are also having this discussion here in Cape Town. We avg high wind and normale change to the lapper in 12 knots. We also have the bulb keel but we still seem on pace if not faster than the compition in the light air. How much was your 3DL lapper?

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:07am
	Don't know, it came with the boat when in bought it. Previous owner almost never used it and i put it away. I've been using an older, dacron, lapper till we learn the boat a little better and since we do beer can races.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 July 2006 at 12:43pm
	drunkenSailor, I sent you a PM about the price I paid this winter.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 November 2006 at 3:58am
	Hey. Sorry haven't been on for a long time. When ended up getting a keval Kevlar/laminit lapper made. We raced with it but still had the ratting for the 155. We creamed everybody. the wind was only blowing 8 to 14 knots most of the regatta and we were amazed we were going the same with the lapper as we would wiht the 155. One thing thow is we have to change to a small sail earlier compared to the old lapper. This one is some power full we have to change down to the old one or a no 3 by the time it starts to blow 18 to 20. Our main and lapper package is very potent. and we are changing our irc rating to it. Hopefully we can win the irc nationals again like we did last year. Regards DS

Chris Ross Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Skipper Joined: 16 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 70	Post Options Post Reply Quote Chris Ross Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 November 2006 at 2:34pm
	Who made the sail? Does it have a larger roach? Is the draft different from your other lapper?
	Chris Ross

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 November 2006 at 11:44am
	What i know is that it is the same size but a lot more powerfull. it was made by Andy Mitchell at north sails in cape town. We went training on Sunday with it and we sailed with just it up on the way back to the club to have a closer look at it. The wind was blowing around 14 - 18 knts. with just it up we were seening speed avg around 5.5knts. max at 6. this is on the boat that has teh bulb on it. We all so had very good hieght. There were only 3 on the boat at the time but full crew of 6 we should be really hot.

redfox Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rookie Joined: 24 November 2006 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 12	Post Options Post Reply Quote redfox Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 November 2006 at 4:13pm
	Hello around the Altlantic Ocean! As probably the only Laser 28 sailor in Germany I follow your translatlantic discussion about the lapper with great interest. My boat a RedFox 290, (the European Laser 28 with 300 kg more weight in the keel - unfortunately at the upper end of the keel) is equipped with a genoa I (155%) and a genoa III (100%). I guess a lapper could be an interesting sail for median wind conditions. My question now is what the the typical range for a lapper is or in other words is an alround sail or a relatively specialized one? Also of interest would be the range of prices around the Atlantic Ocean. In Germany the price for a lapper is around 1.500 Euro. Best regards Klaus Ger 5710, Kiel
	Klaus

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 November 2006 at 1:49pm
	My understanding is that the boat was originally designed for the lapper only. But soon after the boat was introduced they started modifying the boat to take 155 jibs to make them more competitive under PHRF racing. (PHRF is the most widely used handicap here in the US.) In my experience you can switch to the lapper around 12kts true wind speed; maybe less with a lighter crew. This is based on the stock boat with no keel modifications. I’ve yet to experience the high end of the lapper, I’m guessing close to 30? Unfortunately we rarely use the lapper because the winds are relatively light here.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 December 2006 at 7:34am
	We now use the lapper as our biggest head sail and change down to a number 3 in around 22 to 25.

Chris Ross Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Skipper Joined: 16 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 70	Post Options Post Reply Quote Chris Ross Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 January 2007 at 5:07pm
	drunken sailor, could you post a pic of the new lapper while it is up. I'm very interested in seeing what the shape of the sail is. when it is flying.
	Chris Ross

jez rees Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rookie Joined: 25 June 2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 43	Post Options Post Reply Quote jez rees Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2010 at 9:33am
	Can I re-open this old discussion? We're getting worried that we don't get decent results whenever we fly the genoa. We're slower through tacks and are not getting the same height as the non-overlapping headsail. I'm going to do some testing on angles and boatspeed with the two sails (has anyone already done this?). Last thursday's race 13-15 knots No.3 headsail, we won plus gaining on faster boats upwind. This thursday's race 10-13 knots No. 1 genoa, last - only gaining on faster boats downwind. There could be a lot more elements involved of course...Anyone coming to the same conclusion? We know the boat wasn't designed for the genoa. If we re-rate on just the no. 3 under IRC this could do us some serious favours.

fatjohnz Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 05 August 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 304	Post Options Post Reply Quote fatjohnz Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2010 at 11:30am
	On the river where I sail, I need the genoa for light air reaching legs. Further down the river, where its wider, they sail more traditional windward/leeward courses. In the downriver club, there is a Laser owned by a Doyle rep who has removed the genoa from his inventory because he made similar observations as you against his competitors; and he gets a phrf benefit from removing the genoa. john

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 May 2010 at 2:46pm
	jes-rees, Not sure if your #3 is what I call the lapper. My "lapper" is a 108%. In my opinion there's no question the lapper is the right sail at or above 12-kts of wind. Speed is equal to the 155, you can point slightly higher because of the diference in sheeting angle, and tacks are faster. Also, in 12-kts and above, less expierenced crews may have a tendancy to heel excessivly with the 155 which is dog slow in the L28. That said, it took me a while to learn to sail the 155 to it's best potential. I use in-haulers to bring the sheating angle even with the corner of the cabin roof. In all but the lightest conditions I sheet in untill the sail is just touchching the spreader. In puffy / shifty conditions you'll need to play the genoa to keep it at this spot as the wind-speed changes.

jez rees Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Rookie Joined: 25 June 2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 43	Post Options Post Reply Quote jez rees Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 2010 at 10:35am
	Interesting. Our no. 3 jib is 100% whereas the no. 1 genoa is 142%. I'll have to look at this inhauling issue, are you on a lower track or the after cabin roof track? A thought that I've been having is that we set up the genoa pre-start to make sure that telltales break evenly but that perhaps when we're past 10 knots that we should twist the top out to spill the high up air. We can then always put it back in if it goes light.

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 2010 at 4:33pm
	Our boat has two sets of genoa tracks, one on the deck and one on top of the cabin roof. The north sail tuning guide tells you to use the inside track (on the cabin top) when the wind is light and then switch to the outboard (on deck) track when the wind builds. But i never liked the shape of the genoa when using the inboard track. It seems to me the best position is just inboard of the window - where you can't mount a track. That's why i use inhaulers instead of just sheeting through the inboard track. Also, if you get stuck with the genoa up in too much wind you can blow the in-hauler, thereby changing the sheeting lead to the outboard track. This will open the slot and help keep the boat on her feet. You shouln't have to twist the genoa in 10kts - maybe around 13-kts. You need weight - we often sail with 7. As you get overpowered, sheet the main hard, very hard, which will flatten your headsail and depower the rig. Then use the traveler in the puffs. If wailing the main still leaves you overpowered then go to backstay.

khardy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Commodore Joined: 22 June 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 132	Post Options Post Reply Quote khardy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 2010 at 4:39pm
	By the way, the only reason I don't drop the genoa from the invintory and get the PHRF rating gain is that our races have too much reaching. If we had more windward / leeward races i'd drop the genoa in a heartbeat.