Class rules |
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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Posted: 02 May 2013 at 3:58am |
We don't sail one design here on the west coast, so we have migrated from the class rules a bit. I think consideration should be made to update the rules to allow the Laser to catch up with the times and become a better boat.
1. Just about nobody puts new lifelines on sailboats now days using stainless steel. The higher grades of dyneema are better in every way and weight 1/7 as much as 1 x 19. 2. Similarly no one uses 1x19 for back stays on fractional rigs. 4mm dyneema is plenty and is also 1/7 the weight. Today there is an increasing trend in using dyneema, specifically Dynex Dux, to replace 1x19 in the standing rigging. Of course this will provide a substantial improvement in boat performance, so once one boat goes, everyone would have to, but I suspect that in 5 years from now, Dynex and others who may developer other ultra-hi performing synthetics, will have the majority of the standing rigging in high performance boats. Our little Lasers are quite tender with not a generous amount of weight or surface area to our keels. Why not get rid of some of the weight in the ends and up high so that these things can move a bit better? Dyneema is cheaper than stainless and simple things like back stays and life lines can be spliced by the owner with special equipment. Comments? |
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Bill Layton
Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Frank are you saying buying a Dyneema backstay is cheaper than buying a a standard 1x19 - 3/16" dia with swaged on ends? Can you verify this for me.
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Guests
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3/16 wire is $1.69/ft at Defender. 5/32 AmSteel (Dyneema) is $0.70/ft. 12 strand is so easy to splice that even I can do it.
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Bill Layton
Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Thanks Dan,
I thought at one point the dyneema needed a cover on it? Do we just leave the dyneema exposed with regular splices on the end? Is it really that simple.
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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Yes, it is really that simple. However, on mine, I cut some 6" sleeves of jacket material and slipped it over the dyneema to line up with the stanchions and then whipped the ends into place. The original Laser stanchions are quite fair so unsure if it was necessary, but it is simple to do, so why not. Also, if one goes the extra mile and uses Dynex, it is very abrasive resistant. They are using it, uncovered, to wrap and drag logs out of the forest in that industry where it has replaces chain and steel wire. I still used the little jackets though.
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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By-the-way, same with making a new backstay. If you can do a brummel splice, you can make a back stay. Also about price: There are many grades of dyneema, but all stronger than steel. There is SK 75, SK 78, and SK 90, then such things as Dynex Dux. You can also order dyneema winch line from China via Ebay, etc, where you can buy 5mm for the life lines, or back stay, etc, for about $.50/ft. I also purchased some yacht braid for them in 8mm (5/16') with a dyneema core and polyester jacket. I purchased six rolls of 50m each. The advertised price was $128/roll, but since I bought 6 rolls he discounted it to something like $100. This material is beautiful, but not suitable for tapering, because the core is not UV protected as are the cores from New England ropes, Samson, etc. They are nice lines though.
Regarding Dynex, I think the class might be able to negotiate a deal on a their 5mm from Colligo Marine. The owner's name is John. His company is the one making the most effort in promoting Dynex into the recreational marine community. They offered to rig my entire boat in Dynex, including standing rigging, as a promotional thing. The local handicappers said that they would start out with a 3 point hit. As it happens, my boat is under the microscope by the rating people as it is, so I decided to not do it. As long as my boat is pretty much a conforming Laser, they can't very too much from the base rating. However we have here what we refer to as an X-boat, (something to which there is no reference or has been highly customized) and once you are an X -boat the rating people can assign any number they want to it. I don't want to trip into that. The company in China I deal with is called YZ Ropes. Find them on Ebay. |
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Bill Layton
Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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After some reading I've learned that the lifespan of Dynex is 5 years. That'a about the same lifespan as PVC coated lifelines.... but my backstay is 28 years old...
Edited by Bill Layton - 02 May 2013 at 7:26pm |
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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The reason that Dynex can only be advertised as good for 5 years in the sun is because it hasn't existed longer than that for practical testing. The expect it to go much further. Also, you have no idea if your plastic coated life lines are good or not because where they start rusting is beneath the plastic. That's why most authorities don't allow them anymore. When I purchased Voila, the one thing on the survey report was the suggestion that I get rid of the plastic coated life lines. We trucked her from Portland to Blaine, and then sailed her from Blaine to Squamish, BC. Within an hour one of the life lines failed. I did a lash job and made a temporary fix. An hour later, a separate life line failed.
In my view, there is no case that can be made for steel compared to Dyneema for life lines and standing rigging other than for, perhaps, the forestay. I can't figure out how to accommodate the 72 diameters of bury in the 6.24 mm channel in the Carbo Foil. |
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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Just noted you were referring to the backstay, which is 1 x 19 and surely will last a long time. It also weighs a tonne and goes all the way to the mast head........dump it. Let's free these little boats up a little and let them chase the big guys.
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Bill Layton
Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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I have the fresh water perspective and have never seen a coated lifeline fail and we have lots of boats here. But with the RRS mandating lifelines we will follow that and drop our own rule. The membership will need to decide if they want to allow dyneema for the B-stay. It certainly isn't a cost issue and it's been around for over 10 years. Sounds interesting. Thanks for your input
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Winner
Commodore Joined: 07 September 2011 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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I think Frank makes a convincing argument, especially when it comes to
reducing the weight that's high above the COG to help reduce heel. I'd
be curious to know though how much weight that is in total (let's say
combined weight of mast, stays, shrouds and sails) and how much of that weight is
contributed by the forestay and backstay, as a percentage of the total
weight. My sense is that the two stays are probably not a huge
contributer and even by reducing that weight by 85%, the overall difference won't be huge. But that's just my quick response without putting actual numbers to it.
My boat is freshwater and all my lifelines and backstay are in great shape so until I start racing more competitively I'll stick to what I have. |
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Chris
Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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In sailing, no single item breaks a boat loose and sends her on the plane other than say 50hp on the back. A boat's speed is the culmination of many fractions.
Weight aloft is a terrible thing for our Lasers. Recently I demonstrated to our crew in a practice the necessity of hiking hard. In the given breeze we were making 6 knots even with all hands on the rail and feet out. I then had the main trimmer turn around with his feet insider and the boat speed dropped to 5.74. That's about 500m per hour.......non recoverable. It seems like a little thing to have one's feet inside, but it is not. If you could put, say 3 or 4 pounds on the end of a pole of say 26' long and held it out and waved it around.....you couldn't. Now accelerate that weight as when going over chop and hitting a wave, and the inertia of the mass is huge. Worse, hang it all out to leeward on the end of a long stick. Much worse than one crew with his feet inboard. Boats far bigger and more stable than ours, are meticulous at reducing weight aloft. Voila lives on the hardstand together with a fleet of Farr 30's. None have steel back stays or cascades, all their antennas are on the push pit, many halyards start at 6mm and taper from there. After all, we are all trying to go 6 mph just a little faster than the next guy. Fractions make the difference if you are a racing sailor. |
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Seawolf
Commodore Joined: 15 March 2012 Location: missoula Status: Offline Points: 118 |
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Well this is timely, I just sent my rig off to a rigger to be inspected and the backstay bridle to be replaced due to a little "meathook". So if I am advised that I need to replace my rigging, then I am coming back here for another hard look at this. If I understood this thread, you are advocating replacing the 1x19 with Dynex for all standing rigging except the forestay, and that is due to the carbofoil being design to fit on a 1x19 SS. I guess one thing that got me hesitating on this idea, even though there is the initial cost savings on the standing rigging, there is the idea of losing the mast which would be a substantial cost. However, I will definitely do the replacement for the lifelines in Dynex.
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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Life lines and for certain the back stay. Then dump all the stainless steel wire in the cascade system and replace it with any of the Dyneema's. You don't need Dynex for that. Just some Amsteel or anything in the 1/8 - 3/16 range will do for the cascade. You will be very happy with it all.
If you decide to go with more Dynex for standing rigging, I would not worry about the rig falling down. The steel shrouds that are standard on the Laser have a tensile strength of 4,400 psi. The 5mm Dynex Dux that would replace them is rated at 11,000 psi and weighs 1/7th as much as the steel. Then you can also take the heavy rusting bolt cutters off the boat, and just keep your rigging knife sharp. The use of Dynex is rigging is not a cheaper step down. It is an improving step up both in safety and boat performance. |
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I wouldn't be so quick to start recommending dux for standing rigging. It's one thing for the backstay that we are adjusting constantly. From what I understand, dux has a lot of creep and would require constant adjusting, beyond what you could accomplish with regular turnbuckles -- they do not have enough range. I think there is a ways to go before it becomes a viable option.
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Winner
Commodore Joined: 07 September 2011 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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A few years ago on the boat I crew on, we bought a new jib halyard as the old one had terrible meat hooks in the 1x19 stainless (yes, we were actually using stainless 1x19 for a halyard). We upgraded to dyneema.
Seemed like a great idea until the first time we hoisted the genoa with the new halyard, five minutes into the Wednesday race the line broke. Turns out a sheave at the top of the mast where the line entered the mast had some sharp edges, most likely from the abuse of the meat hook (chicken or egg I'm not sure but I digress). My point is, Dyneema is super strong and super thin, but you'd better keep it away from sharp objects. Hoisting your genoa back up with the other halyard is one thing. Losing your backstay is something else. Yes, I know the L28 will survive a blown backstay, but I'm just saying is all... |
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Chris
Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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When I bought my boat in 2008 it had a spectra (dyneema) back stay that had been on it for years. It also had spectra tapered halyards that went back to 2005, still good. I have since changed the back stay and down sized it to 4mm and shortened it, and all halyards are dyneema and tapered. No problems with anything. If you have burrs on your sheave boxes, they were caused by the wear from the rubbing of the previous stainless wire halyards that wear on the sides. My boxes are fine and there is zero wear on my halyards. Our halyards are 1/4" before tapering, so we are only 1/8" dyneema on the core.......no failures nor wear on the halyards at all.
Regarding standing rigging, they do use standard turnbuckles for take-up, though multiple lashings are an alternative, mostly used on cruisers and multi hulls. Boats like ours use turnbuckles. Dux creeps very little as it is already pre-stretched. There is initial movement, but it is the mechanical take-up of the splices and settling into the terminating thimbles. Once that is taken up, there is no creep in the line. I am not trying to sell the stuff, it is not my business. However the notion that dyneema is risky in the use of back stays and halyards is totally without foundation, unless the yacht is not properly set up. We have no visible wear on our dyneema other than some light fraying on our tapered spinnaker sheets that rub through the beak of the pole end, but the same tapered lines still go on for years in that use. |
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Bill Layton
Commodore Joined: 15 September 2002 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Frank, What toggle do you use for the b-stay at the masthead crane? Or do you attach to only one side? and do you use a thimbal on the bottom end?
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frfletch
Commodore Joined: 13 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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My backstay has a thimble on both ends. At the top I use a double toggle. The top of the toggle is captured by the standard thru-pin. When I put mine together I had to use things that I had or could make, so at the bottom of the toggle it straddles the thimble(all centered), but I machined a little barrel/sleeve that the pin goes through to fix the space between the toggle so that I could use a 1/4" round head machine screw as the fixing pin secured by a nylon capped lock nut. The sleeve allows the nut to be tightened holding the toggle tight to the sleeve, but the thimble moves freely between the toggles because the space is fixed by the sleeve. The thimble rests on the sleeve.
At the bottom the thimble attaches to the first block of the cascade system via a D shackle, I think much like the original. I think most of my cascade hardware may be original with the metal Shafer at the top and a mix of stuff from my box, mostly small block Harken. The top of the cascade running the first 2:1 is maybe 3/16 dyneema, then it is mostly 1/8 th, all single braid until I get to the 4:1 control lines which are double braid standard junk line that is soft to the hand and about 7 or 8 mm. I will photograph the cascade today and send it to you for posting. Much of my 1/8th isn't pretty because it is just odd pieces of dyneema I had laying around to make up the cascade. |
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Winner
Commodore Joined: 07 September 2011 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Oh yeah for sure the sheave damage was caused by the previous 1x19 wire. I guess all I'm saying is that if you're considering switching, inspect everything carefully to make sure you have no sharp edges :-) |
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Chris
Eclipse #240 Thunder Bay, ON |
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