Lapper vs 155 genoa

You tried the new sail today. Right? Lets hear the verdict!

I've read this discussion with interest and it seems no consensus was reached as to lapper vs genoa overall, although there does seem to be agreement that the lapper definitely points better and is generally preferred in winds over 12 kts  whilst the genoa will do better in light air sailing on a reach.

What seems seems debatable is which is better for racing a windward/leeward course in light winds.

The genoa/lapper debate aside for the moment, my question, going back to Frank's comment above, would be whether to consider going with a lapper/reaching spinnaker (such as the North Sails S1 symmetrical) combination instead of a lapper/genoa for light winds.  The spinnaker won't point as high as the genoa (it's advertised at 60-120 AWA) but will it be worth it on those light wind days?  Bill Brock discussed this sail in another post within these forums and seems to like his.

Or do people see the S1 spinnaker and the genoa as not being mutually exclusive and it would be nice to have both (although budget does play a role here)!

Another option would be a Code 0 asymmetrical but this would involve adding a bowsprit.

Comments?

i just added a #1 to Voila which took my BC PHRF from 147 to 141, about 30 seconds per hour which is a very stiff penalty for carrying this thing. I now owe time to C&C 35's, etc. We have raced with it only once. Speed was good, but I went the wrong way on a tack and never recovered the loss, so not a good test.

Having considered the in hauling idea, I have already removed the inboard tracks when I re finished the boat, however I plotted the outside tracks to find them situated 11.5 degrees off center. Most modern boats sheet to about 9 degrees and some even less. However, our little Laser is challenged with wide spreaders and shrouds that come quite far outboard, so I can see that inboard of 11.5 one is going to be fighting the foot against the shrouds. We find the speed of this sail sheeted to the lower deck to be very similar to the lapper. If I was still racing in Squamish I would definitely ditch the #1 because we average 20 kts and flat water, however sailing in West Vancouver, we often have light or dying winds with a left-over slop, and we are trying a #1 for this purpose. Otherwise, under PHRF, I'm thinking it is a waist of time and money. I see that many of the Lasers we hear of sailing in the North Americans, etc, sail largely against one another, so I'm guessing that rating is not an issue, but I seriously doubt that the #1 can give you sufficient advantage to over come 30 seconds per hour. The penalty is carried downwind as well, so going to windward I guess one must see at least a 45 second per hour advantage in order to break even on rating/speed/time. Perhaps only in sloppy conditions. I'm wondering if those of you who speak to reaching might consider an asymetrical for that leg and drop the #1. The #1 will not reach that well sheeted to the track. Let's keep this conversation going and hear some more from those who sail in PHRF fleets.

Our boat has two sets of genoa tracks, one on the deck and one on top of the cabin roof. The north sail tuning guide tells you to use the inside track (on the cabin top) when the wind is light and then switch to the outboard (on deck) track when the wind builds. But i never liked the shape of the genoa when using the inboard track. It seems to me the best position is just inboard of the window - where you can't mount a track. That's why i use inhaulers instead of just sheeting through the inboard track. Also, if you get stuck with the genoa up in too much wind you can blow the in-hauler, thereby changing the sheeting lead to the outboard track. This will open the slot and help keep the boat on her feet.

You shouln't have to twist the genoa in 10kts - maybe around 13-kts. You need weight - we often sail with 7. As you get overpowered, sheet the main hard, very hard, which will flatten your headsail and depower the rig. Then use the traveler in the puffs. If wailing the main still leaves you overpowered then go to backstay.   

jes-rees,

Not sure if your #3 is what I call the lapper. My "lapper" is a 108%. In my opinion there's no question the lapper is the right sail at or above 12-kts of wind. Speed is equal to the 155, you can point slightly higher because of the diference in sheeting angle, and tacks are faster. Also, in 12-kts and above, less expierenced crews may have a tendancy to heel excessivly with the 155 which is dog slow in the L28.

That said, it took me a while to learn to sail the 155 to it's best potential. I use in-haulers to bring the sheating angle even with the corner of the cabin roof. In all but the lightest conditions I sheet in untill the sail is just touchching the spreader. In puffy / shifty conditions you'll need to play the genoa to keep it at this spot as the wind-speed changes.

Can I re-open this old discussion?

We're getting worried that we don't get decent results whenever we fly the genoa. We're slower through tacks and are not getting the same height as the non-overlapping headsail. I'm going to do some testing on angles and boatspeed with the two sails (has anyone already done this?).

Last thursday's race 13-15 knots No.3 headsail, we won plus gaining on faster boats upwind. This thursday's race 10-13 knots No. 1 genoa, last - only gaining on faster boats downwind.

There could be a lot more elements involved of course...Anyone coming to the same conclusion? We know the boat wasn't designed for the genoa. If we re-rate on just the no. 3 under IRC this could do us some serious favours.

We now use the lapper as our biggest head sail and change down to a number 3 in around 22 to 25.

Hello around the Altlantic Ocean!

As probably the only Laser 28 sailor in Germany I follow your translatlantic discussion about the lapper with great interest. My boat a RedFox 290, (the European Laser 28 with 300 kg more weight in the keel - unfortunately at the upper end of the keel) is equipped with a genoa I (155%) and a genoa III (100%). I guess a lapper could be an interesting sail for median wind conditions. My question now is what the the typical range for a lapper is or in other words is an alround sail or a relatively specialized one?
Also of interest would be the range of prices around the Atlantic Ocean. In Germany the price for a lapper is around 1.500 Euro.

Best regards
Klaus
Ger 5710, Kiel

Who made the sail? Does it have a larger roach? Is the draft different from your other lapper?

drunkenSailor, I sent you a PM about the price I paid this winter.