Sailmakers

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   Quote: Originally posted by Dave on 20 September 2002

I debated going with a pentex or kevlar mainsail, but in the end decided that my first set of new sails would be from a one-design loft.  I figure the one-design sail makers would be more familiar with the quirks of a Laser 28.  The dacron main feels very heavy compared to the kevlar genoa.  I think I will go with a more exotic material in the mainsail the next time I buy one.  

Dave,
I think you made a wise choice for a starting point. You ended up with a sail that works and didn't over pay for it.
Yes the dacron does weigh a few ounces, certainly more than the genoa. But generally it takes much more abuse;

It will probably only be at 20 knots true before you reef the sail.
The main is the sail you flog the most.
The main gets the most sun.
While pentex and kevlar have their advantages, they have a few disadvantages too and they will show in the conditions mantioned above. I think the only advantage to exotic materials for main sails is the weight savings, this might be very desirable if you sail in 5 knots or less quite often...like say Annapolis for example.
Otherwise, I'm pleased to here things are off to a good start Dave, now you a benchamrk to judge against.
Cheers,

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Foghorn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 24 August 2002 Location: Montreal, QC Status: Offline Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote Foghorn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Sailmakers Posted: 20 September 2002 at 9:48pm
	Quote: Originally posted by Dave on 20 September 2002 I debated going with a pentex or kevlar mainsail, but in the end decided that my first set of new sails would be from a one-design loft. I figure the one-design sail makers would be more familiar with the quirks of a Laser 28. The dacron main feels very heavy compared to the kevlar genoa. I think I will go with a more exotic material in the mainsail the next time I buy one. Dave, I think you made a wise choice for a starting point. You ended up with a sail that works and didn't over pay for it. Yes the dacron does weigh a few ounces, certainly more than the genoa. But generally it takes much more abuse; It will probably only be at 20 knots true before you reef the sail. The main is the sail you flog the most. The main gets the most sun. While pentex and kevlar have their advantages, they have a few disadvantages too and they will show in the conditions mantioned above. I think the only advantage to exotic materials for main sails is the weight savings, this might be very desirable if you sail in 5 knots or less quite often...like say Annapolis for example. Otherwise, I'm pleased to here things are off to a good start Dave, now you a benchamrk to judge against. Cheers,
	Paul White Decompression CAN 214

Foghorn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 24 August 2002 Location: Montreal, QC Status: Offline Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote Foghorn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 September 2002 at 9:39pm
	Quote: Originally posted by Chris Ladd on 20 September 2002 The class kite needs a full length pole... Now for PHRF I have gone another 4 inches longer (with wider kites) and taken a further penality. This is an interesting point Chris. In the sailing we have done, we have never found an actual benefit by using a shorter spinaker pole and smaller chute. Given the ratings advantage versus the loss in performance, you're better off staying with stock size. It's interesting you are even going beyond that . Cheers,
	Paul White Decompression CAN 214

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 September 2002 at 9:25pm
	I race PHRF in the Boston area and this was my first year with the boat. I bought a new one design mainsail and genoa from Doyle last spring. I like the sails, and the boat went a lot faster once I got them. I debated going with a pentex or kevlar mainsail, but in the end decided that my first set of new sails would be from a one-design loft. I figure the one-design sail makers would be more familiar with the quirks of a Laser 28. The dacron main feels very heavy compared to the kevlar genoa. I think I will go with a more exotic material in the mainsail the next time I buy one. I am going to buy a .5 oz runner this winter for PHRF. The standard .75oz spinnaker is way too heavy for most conditions.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 September 2002 at 7:23pm
	Doug, The class kite needs a full length pole... Now for PHRF I have gone another 4 inches longer (with wider kites) and taken a further penality. If you are going to race some OD then I would say go with the class size pole. Is your running kite full width? One more thought... I have had good success running a Blast Reacher/ Code Zero in PHRF (works great for cruising as well). Check to see if your sailmaker guy can cut up an old .75 oz chute. No penalities yet for running this configuration here, but the mid girth must be 75% of the foot.

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 September 2002 at 4:24pm
	Thanks for sharing your experience. We have the running kite already. Still need to stretch the pole back to class length to get back our down wind potential. The previous owner cut it down to J length to get a rating break. Class sails seem to make sense as we hope to see everyone in Kingston next year. I was pleased with our upwind boat speed this season with the North sails against Rags, Rascal, Chasse and Plum Danish in LORC and Youngstown Levels. I always lost a few boat lengths downwind with our little pole though... (nice to have something to blame other than my driving ). Quantum has given excellent service locally from my J days.

Foghorn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 24 August 2002 Location: Montreal, QC Status: Offline Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote Foghorn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 September 2002 at 1:40pm
	Quote: Originally posted by Chris Ladd on 20 September 2002 1. Add a light air Genoa- have it built with LOTS of luff curve. 2. Add a 0.5 oz Running Kite Good points Chris Cheers,
	Paul White Decompression CAN 214

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 September 2002 at 1:25pm
	Doug and Paul I agree with your comments regarding OD sails and boat speed, however if you intent to race mostly in a PHRF enviroment then there is a few optimizations that can be done. 1. Add a light air Genoa- have it built with LOTS of luff curve. 2. Add a 0.5 oz Running Kite As far as sailmakers is concerned... Look for service and also considerer Sobstab for spinnakers and UK for Genny's.

Foghorn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 24 August 2002 Location: Montreal, QC Status: Offline Points: 120	Post Options Post Reply Quote Foghorn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 September 2002 at 11:47pm
	Quote: Originally posted by Doug Farrand on 19 September 2002 This may be the start of a religous debate... Yep, you're right...this is not 'Catholic' Quote: Originally posted by Doug Farrand on 19 September 2002 Who makes the best sails for a Laser28? Which sailmaker has provided you with the best/worst service? I guess to some extent these 2 questions can be answered together. I'll hold back on my opinion but give you some food for thought. If the basis for the question is speed, then I might answer (for the sake of arguement) there has not been a huge difference in top speed in a given condition...yet there has been huge differences in how you get there. Some sailmakers have their sails in such a way that there is less adjusting needed, or sometimes referred to as 'changing geers'. Achieving top speed comes with less fuss and more straightforward adjustments. Some sailmakers have also made the mast tuning relatively easy. While it can be argued that you can constantly make adjustments to the spar to optimise for the conditions, we have found sailmakers that have kept the tuning to an understandable science with a base setting that responds very well in all conditions. You could also argue that the best sailmaker is the one that gives you the best service and support. Quote: Originally posted by Doug Farrand on 19 September 2002 What are the pro's and con's of Class sails vs. PHRF optimized construction? I have yet to see a PHRF 'optimised' sail that is faster than the one design sails. That said, the 2 areas people have exploited for PHRF are; more favourable rating because of changes in sail design and/or size use of different materials premissed on either longer life and/or more durability As I mentioned, since none of these sails in my opinion are actually faster than one design sails, it is really a cost/benefit situation that has yet to be clearly demonstrated in favour of PHRF designs. Quote: Originally posted by Doug Farrand on 19 September 2002 Bolt rope or mast slides for the main? For racing I think there is no question that a bolt rope is preferable. Quote: Originally posted by Doug Farrand on 19 September 2002 Who is D&B? DB Sails were marketted by Denise Bienvenu. Quote: Originally posted by Doug Farrand on 19 September 2002 I plan to add a new main and genoa next season. Any suggestions? I won't make any suggestions on the brand, instead I offer food for thought; Buy one design sails. By going this route you will have the most options for regattas and there is nothing faster. One design sails are the best value. If you sail against Jet, who uses North Sails, and Rags, who uses Doyle Sails ( though recently some are not class) you will be able to sparr against 2 fast boats in your area. Better still is if you come to CORK where you can sail against the rest of us and many boats using Quantum Sails. If you get your boat speed up to par with the top of the fleet at CORK, you will be sailing the boat at its potential and once at this level, you will also do well in PHRF! Of course all of this is just my opinion, but after sailing the boat since the prototype, having done plenty of PHRF racing and a lot of MORC racing with all sorts of changes in search of the best rating (23.6 was our lowest)...these are my humble thoughts. Cheers...and good sailing
	Paul White Decompression CAN 214

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 September 2002 at 10:41pm
	This may be the start of a religous debate... Who makes the best sails for a Laser28? Which sailmaker has provided you with the best/worst service? What are the pro's and con's of Class sails vs. PHRF optimized construction? Bolt rope or mast slides for the main? -I have one season of experience with my boat. It came equipped with '98 vintage North panelled dacron main and 3DL Genoa. The Genoa is starting to get alot of holes, but the shape is still pretty good. A lapper made by D&B??? and various older bags of sails. The '84 original .75oz spinnaker is still holding together along with a much younger .5oz from Haarstick. I plan to add a new main and genoa next season. Any suggestions? Who is D&B? Thanks, Doug